Best land plot for permaculture and straw bale house

[pauloasl]

Dear member of PRI permaculture forum,

I'm Paulo Lemos, i'm 32 years old arts teacher, and i live on the other side of the planet, in Portugal.
I believe my country has many great features for a possible sustainable living. In the actually place i live, it rains between 800 and 1000 mm/m2 per year, most of the days in the year are sunny days, with temperatures between 10 and 22 degrees Celsius in winter and between 25 and 40 degrees Celsius in summer. I believe i live in what it's called a subtropical weather.

I'm looking to buy a plot of land but i don't know what to be looking for. What's the best kind of terrain, soil characteristics, sun orientation, etc...

I'm trying to buy this plot to establish my little permaculture farm, my food forest and my straw bale house. Me and my girlfriend dream of living an off the grid sustainable live and as soon as possible bring a child to this dream world that we are trying to build.

Any help would be awesome! I really need it

Best regard to all,

Paulo Lemos

[Grahame]

Hi Paulo,

This is a very broad question for anyone to answer, it's a bit like asking, 'How long is a piece of string?'. In short, the best kind of land is the one you can afford (which in itself can be very limiting). I think you need to first do an evaluation of what it is you which to do with your land. Define clearly what you mean by 'living off the grid', do you wish to be 'self-sustaining' or part of a community that is self-sustaining? Do you wish to be sustainable in everything? Only when you have answered all of this will you start to get an idea of what it is you need from your land.

My point is that there are as many answers to that question as there are people asking it.

Perhaps you might consider having some 'practice' before you get yourself into something you are unsure of.

Good luck and keep asking questions, you have embarked on a journey that takes years, and I suspect one that you will not complete in this lifetime. I work on the idea that I am starting to learn things now that my children or my grandchildren will benefit most from.

cheers
Grahame

[sun burn]

What's the best kind of terrain, soil characteristics, sun orientation, etc...

Hi Paul

I haven't much experience buying land but i think i know what you are getting at. There are some general dos and don'ts.

Avoid land that is all rocky. YOu want it with soil, the deeper the better. If it was used for cultivation before its probably good for it again. If it was only ever used for grazing goats, then its probably not much good for you, unless you only want to graze goats too.

Here where i live, in the southern hemisphere, you don't want land generally sloping towards the west but towards the east, ie towards the sunrise. It seems morning sun is preferable. And never buy land that is predominantly sloping north and is in shadow all day. A friend of mine lived on a lovely place but the house was situation in the shadow of a hill to the north for most of the day and it was pretty cold. Maybe that was ok in the summer but not so nice in winter. For all that she had a lovely garden.

Soil characteristics, if you've got time and you probably do, read up a bit on soils so you know what to look for. I'm currently reading a book called DRY Gardening Australia. It explains things like soil structure and type. All that in the first chapter. If you understand this, then you wll know what to look for. Obviously teh best soil will be rich in organic matter. Good soil holds water well but doesn't get waterlogged. Sandy soil is bad because it doesn't hold much water and you will have a lot of work to do adding organic matter to it. A loam is probably the best sort of soil. it is a good combation of sand clay and silt which gives you good drainage and has good texture. So yeah read up about it. If you buy land with a lot of rocks you will have a lot of work moveing them and it probably won't have much soil. If you look at rocky land see how much of it is growing things and check soil depth.

Obviously its good to have water. If you can't have a river or something like that consider a bore as an option. Ask locally or the local authorities about other bores and how deep they are. consider the cost of putting down a bore and then the quality of the water. I guess if no one else is doing it in the area, it may not be viable.

Look at the water catchment area. Is all the slope running out of your land or into it. The more that runs into it the better as you will catch more water.

While river flats are great for farming, they might be prone to flooding. Always check the public records for things like flooding and any other natural disasters. Just because it floods doens't necessarily mean its a bad thing but if it floods some high ground would also be good. I grew up on a farm that flooded. It was in a valley with a river half - we lived on one side. We had no water shortage. OUr house was a hill and the cattle had to be moved up to high ground to prevent them drowning or being washed away. It was originally dairy farming land and we used it to grow beef cattle. It was very rich and very green. A wonderful place but too small for beef cattle on its own. My parents should have considered doing something else on it but in those days people didn't think of that. Before they sold it they tried to buy other properties in the area but that was difficult too.

spend as much time as you can hanging around the place before you hand over the money. And since you probably won't be able to hang around for a year, you should talk to the locals or local officials and find out what its like during ohter times of the year. What are hte issues and so on.

Don't rush. Do your research. There's probably books on how to buy land for cultivation as there are books on everything.

Try to figure out how much land you need to achieve the things you want too so you can avoid feeling hte need to buy more than you need. If you can only afford or find a smallish piece of land, then make most of your production vegetable while if you land is large, then you can go more into meat or wool production too. Or with more land you can grow grain instead but that's probably quite laborious.

[sun burn]

I wanted to edit something important but couldn't do it.

So where i say this...you don't want land generally sloping towards the west but towards the east, ie towards the sunrise. in the second paragraph, it should read...

If you are buying land in a valley or on a hillside, choose land with an aspect towards the sunrise rather than sunset. If the land is undulating, i would think which way it slopes doesn't matter too much with regard to the setting sun.

Also.because of our different hemispheres, this might sound confusing.
And never buy land that is predominantly sloping north and is in shadow all day. A friend of mine lived on a lovely place but the house was situation in the shadow of a hill to the north for most of the day and it was pretty cold. Maybe that was ok in the summer but not so nice in winter. For all that she had a lovely garden.


change to this ....And never buy land that is predominantly facing north in the northern hemisphere and is in shadow all day. A friend of mine here in australia lived on a lovely place but the house was situation in the shadow of a hill to the north east for most of the day and it was pretty cold. Maybe that was not so terrible in the summer but not nice in winter. For all that she had a lovely garden.

Sorry about that.

[pauloasl]

Hi Paulo,

This is a very broad question for anyone to answer, it's a bit like asking, 'How long is a piece of string?'. In short, the best kind of land is the one you can afford (which in itself can be very limiting). I think you need to first do an evaluation of what it is you which to do with your land. Define clearly what you mean by 'living off the grid', do you wish to be 'self-sustaining' or part of a community that is self-sustaining? Do you wish to be sustainable in everything? Only when you have answered all of this will you start to get an idea of what it is you need from your land.

My point is that there are as many answers to that question as there are people asking it.

Perhaps you might consider having some 'practice' before you get yourself into something you are unsure of.

Good luck and keep asking questions, you have embarked on a journey that takes years, and I suspect one that you will not complete in this lifetime. I work on the idea that I am starting to learn things now that my children or my grandchildren will benefit most from.

cheers
Grahame

Hi Grahame! Thanks for your time.

Yes i'm pretty sure that there will be obstacles, but with perseverance i think we could achieve anything. And i’m speaking by knowledge.

I could give one example. Three years ago, i was a lazy fat young man, with poor health and poor food habits. I turned my live upside down, i weighted almost 300 pounds and i’ve lost them alone with no help at all, just by changing my way of life, my food and doing my workout. I’ve lost 110 pounds and gained back my life. I did all this in less than one year all by myself.

I believe if you set your mind to it you can do beautiful things.

Trying to answer some of your questions:

- I mean that i wish to live off the grid in terms of energy supply by producing my own electricity, harvesting water, and dealing with my gray waters. Passive Solar Heating, etc...
- I wish to produce most of my food (i’m almost vegan)
- I wish to be self sustaining, but i could and should work with the community.
- I’m sure i will complete my transition in my lifetime.

Thank you so much for your words.

[pauloasl]

Hi Sun Burn! Thanks for your time. That was just the kind of informations that i needed. Thank you so much! Yes i’m very interested and i’m doing my research. I just did a permaculture course, i’m watching some plots of land that i can afford and i’m studying most of the things that you talked about.

Thank you again for your words and time.

[pauloasl]

Hi again Sun Burn. I totally understand you! No problem. I understand you the first time. It’s not confusing at all. In my country the best sun orientation is south. I live in the Northern hemisphere and my country is almost positioned vertically. The sun hits the land with an inclination of 75º degrees in the summer and 25% in the winter.

Check it out:

http://maps.google.pt/maps?f=q&sourc...,20.632324&z=6

Thank you so much again, and excuse me if my english is not the best. As you should know, this is not my native language.

[eco4560]

So which bit of Portugal is currently home? Your English is very good - much better than my Portugese! Congratulations on turning your life around. I'm sure you are an inspiration to the people around you.

[sun burn]

Yes sometimes people from other parts of europe are so good at English when they arrive on this forum that i think they must be English ex pats.

I don't really follow your technical stuff. Its beyond my area of learning. It doesn't matter though. This is your thread. Of course i know where portugal is in relation to the tropic of cancer, roughly.

Congratulations on your weight loss. I think its brilliant. What happened in your mind to bring about this change and commitment? So many people who try to lose so much weight, or even a smaller amount of weight stumble time and again.

[pauloasl]

So which bit of Portugal is currently home? Your English is very good - much better than my Portugese! Congratulations on turning your life around. I'm sure you are an inspiration to the people around you.

Hi eco4560! I live in the west side of Portugal, between "Lisbon" and "Caldas da Rainha". Thank you so much for your appreciation words. Yes, people around me love my story, but unfortunately none of them helped me when i needed it. They now recognize my efforts but don't have the good will to change their lives too. Even today, i'm still struggling and i know that this is a problem for life. I have to control and count all the calories i take in. Got to work out and most of the time it's a war with myself because i love to eat. fortunately i have discovered really good and nutritious foods that help me reducing the calories intake. But it's all mind power and good will.