Permaculture Design Course - How was yours run?

[Boab]

Hello.

I am currently doing a PDC and as I don't come from a permaculture background I am not sure what to expect. I've read a bit and found that not all courses are the same and I am finding out that through my course too.

So if you don't mind me asking a few questions from those of you that have done one, I would love to read your reply just for the sake of comparison as I am now quite curious as to how things are done elsewhere.

1. How long did your course go for?
2. Where was it held?
3. Do qualified permaculture teachers have to run it?
4. Did you break for public holidays?
5. How was your course structured? (Did it have any structure?)
6. Did you get homework, feedback etc after the lesson or were you left to your own devices?
7. Did you feel you learned a lot?
8. How much did your course cost?
9. Did you feel it was value for money?
10. Would you do it again?

Thank you in advance.

[Boab]

Are the questions too hard or is this something not to be spoken about?
Or should I answer them myself first?

Confused,
Boab

[Mungbeans]

Good questions Boab. There is a course at Eumundi that I will definitely be doing once we have moved to Queensland. So I'm curious as well. If you have your own property can you incorporate designing for that property into your course, or is the designing work purely theoretical?

[Boab]

Hi Mungbeans. Thankyou. I can understand why people wouldn't want to answer them and to be fair I have answered them myself with the invitation that people may add what they wish to it. Yes, you can incorporate your property into the course but where I'm doing it, it costs more and all of the design work we have done has been purely theoretical. We did an off site tour but toured people's homes which consisted of disorganised and illegal greywater system, not to mention the dirt and untidiness of the properties we did see. Our "site" chosen for the design module was a student's workplace and we are, as I have learned, essentially giving them a design that the organisation we are learning with is taking payment for. I'm not sure how I feel about that yet. Maybe I'm too old and set in my ways but I expected something very different.

Make of my answers what you will:

1. How long did your course go for?
Course runs for 14 weeks, one day a week. I later learned that the course also included APT students and the general public.

2. Where was it held?
At a community farm in Brisbane.

3. Do qualified permaculture teachers have to run it?
No. Some materials have come from students themselves but about two weeks ago, I discovered that one of our regular teachers does not have a PDC certificate.

4. Did you break for public holidays?
Yes. Three times. Even ANZAC Day, which wasn't anywhere near our designated PDC day.

5. How was your course structured? (Did it have any structure?)
Yes as far as there are two "workshops" per day divided up either side of lunch.
No, in that workshops changed around last minute, there was never a defined lesson plan as such, very little control of the class (people taking calls, going for walks and coming back when they feel like it etc) and they ran more like seminars; ie. person speaks at you. No practical work at all other than a tree planting session…and the mulching by the guest lecturer that day was done backwards.

6. Did you get homework, feedback etc after the lesson or were you left to your own devices?
Left to our own devices. Some of us formed a study group where we'd exchange ideas/input on email which has been a blessing. Even those who have since dropped out of the course have remained with us which is great.

7. Did you feel you learned a lot?
I don't feel I learned anything of great significance really. From what we were given as pertaining to permaculture, I found it to be exactly the same system I was brought up with on the land in Europe many years ago with the learning I did do mainly stemming from adapting this knowledge to the Australian climate. This learning has come largely from books which I researched myself (we were not given a reading list or any learning materials whatsoever apart from the odd single or double sided page on that day's workshop topic) and from what I learned more through my fellow students - some truly amazing characters in that lot. A couple of gits too but I ignore them

8. How much did your course cost?
$950.00 on site or $1,150 if you want to use your property to incorporate your design module. There is a sliding scale but the majority of the group are working. The sliding scale has been opposed by some in the group too, citing it as being very unfair, considering that a few of them do accredited permaculture training (APT - an extra $1,100 - $1,400 I think) and volunteers who also work at the community farm for free.


9. Did you feel it was value for money?
Not by a long shot. I have absolutely no idea why it is so expensive and, as some bright spark in the group pointed out to us, if you work it out by workshop price ($30-45), it works out cheaper! We have had quite a few students drop out because of the price not matching the delivery of the course. To be honest, I've only stayed because to leave would not allow me to get a Certificate which would mean essentially losing all that money.

10. Would you do it again? Not with them no. However, I have heard good things about Crystal Waters and other places though so I now regret that I did not do my research before shelling out a lot of money for what I consider to be very little in return.

By the way, I am not bitter about permaculture. I put those questions up to ask whether this was the norm for PDC because, to be honest, I am not all that taken with 'permaculture training' at all. I am a herbalist by trade and training and I think I shall stick to that and what my parents taught me about farming which to my mind is permaculture anyway.

I remain, however, very bitter with the organisation that ran the course and shall not be supporting them any further.

[Tezza]

Hi Boab Gee you expected a quick answer didnt you... :lol:

Unfortuntly not everyone in heres done a course,Its not compulsory either lol.

I been doing Permaculture near 20 yrs now,Done the visits,meeting lots of wonderfull Permies,Grown lotsa fruit n vegies plus mumerous other things,

I would love to take a course,but circumstances havent allways helped in this regard.

Enjoy your course no matter how good,bad,or what ever,most here never get an oppotunity to partake in one.Not everyone here is near a teacher,let alone get one to visit or teach you.Not that im critisising,

Let us know how,what you thought of your course,wed all like to know

Tezza

[Sonya]

Choosing the best pdc is difficult. I have put off doing one for years -
Best advice is to talk to a lot of people about the best pdc. Join a permaculture group and find out what's available.

The ones that have been recommended to me are:

Crystal Waters with Morag Gamble
Crystal Waters with Max Lindegger (?) (he focusses on built environment)
The Food Forest in Adelaide is one of the most highly recommended ones, but unfortunately they don't offer them in blocks of two weeks for interstate people, they run over a series of weekends which is just too inconvenient.

This is not to say any others are bad... just that these kept coming up as recommended.

I'm doing some permaculture study through the great little Chevallum Organic Gardening Club here on the Coast. The course is being run by Janet Millington, who is a well-known permaculture educator. She is offering a PDC at her property at Eumundi in October 2006 for 13 days. The cost is $440 pp without accommodation or food - both will cost you extra. Hopefully I will be able to do that pdc with her.

If you are thinking of going on to teach permaculture - Robin Clayfield at Crystal Waters is the one to do a course with. Her 'Dynamic Groups creative facilitation intensive' is THE course for learning how to teach permaculture. Nearly all the pdc schools recommend her course.

Robin's next course is 10-15th July 2006, which I hope to be at. I think the cost is $795, but don't quote me on that...

[FREE Permaculture]

I was thinking of doing something with local community based permies, where you just rock up and get your hands dirty and learn bits that way.

Wouldn't it be great if all the knowledgable members here divised an online thing here?
like start with step one with the basics and build from there.
dunno but it would be interesting to keep up with a thread that was designed for begginers and lead up to advanced theories that we could learn at our own pace and implement things we learn in our own backyards.

sorta like a permaculture for dummies course

[Mungbeans]

The course is being run by Janet Millington, who is a well-known permaculture educator. She is offering a PDC at her property at Eumundi in October 2006 for 13 days. The cost is $440 pp without accommodation or food - both will cost you extra. Hopefully I will be able to do that pdc with her.

Sonya, this is the course I am thinking of doing. I'm particularly interested as it includes incorporating aquaculture into the designs. Could you please let us know how it goes?

In the meantime I'm trying to read the Designers Manual by Bill Mollison. Its borrowed from my brother, who did Permaculture as part of his horticultural degree. Which brings me to:

We did an off site tour but toured people's homes which consisted of disorganised and illegal greywater system, not to mention the dirt and untidiness of the properties we did see.

Boab, were these sites presuming to showcase permaculture? If so, that is depressing. One of my brother's biggest complaints about the way permaculture is practiced by many (and he is a big fan) is that many ignore aesthetics. Utility is important but beauty is food for the soul.

[Boab]

Tezza, I thought what I wrote pretty much spelled out what I think of my course. Did you want me to expand on this?

Aesthetics in permaculture? Not with this lot. Not that it was a huge concern to me, though. My concern lay with the illegality of the systems moreso than the look, particularly the precariousness of some of them. I am of the opinion that condoning the premise "you can do what you want because it's permaculture" isn't a good way to go.

As for a PDC, I'm not planning to do any more non-accredited training under the permaculture banner. There is accredited training run by TAFE which I will look into but I'm afraid what I've seen with this organisation and a few others is that it's far too 'lax' for my liking.

As for getting your hands dirty, that's why I chose to do it at a community farm!! But all people seem to enjoy doing is talking about it which for some students, this just isn't adequate.

I am interested to read that one does not have to be a qualified teacher in order to teach. I was just reading a thread on this forum that clearly states that you do. And it was certainly the impression that I and others in my class were given prior to starting the course. But I hasten to add that I'm not necessarily a 'qualification nazi', but I do expect a decent background coupled with an assessable skills base that can be held accountable. It's just not enough to say, "Well I've done this and that for five years..." To be taken seriously, you have to be able to back up what you have. As for learning how to teach permaculture, group dynamic facilitation is not teacher education. Pardon me for saying so but I think that, in addition to the PDC course itself, is another moneymaking gimmick.

I am not attacking anyone personally, just stating my opinion and this is how I see it.

Thank you for your answers. Most appreciated.

[Mike_E_from_NZ]

Utility is important but beauty is food for the soul.

Oh boy, this one is sure to get the masses arguing. You could fill Murray's server space with the different views.

If it has lots of life going on then nature thinks it is just fine. If you can also eat and live from it, then Bill Mollison would call it Permaculture. If it is also (and very definitely lastly and leastly) pleasing to your particular eye, then good on you.

I recall one of Bill's books dismissing tidiness as the morbid desire to control and subdue by someone who lacks creativity. That is very definitely paraphrased - so please feel free to correct me. He was equally dismissive in the flesh.

Mike