Ah. So one could also find christianpermaculture.com if one looked in the backlog at permies.com ;-) (or searched deliberately for christian permaculture) It's not like that is a very active thread, and will eventually drop of that forum page.
Strangely permies shows that thread having 6 replies, but I only see 1. And we can't see how many viewings its had. Unlike this thread which has had 763 views.
I can see approx 2 threads with 'christian' in the subject line in the whole of permies. Given that permies is the hottest Pc forum online it's hardly a take over.
That is where I ran across it, by clicking on the Wwoffing section, no google search, no seeking.
No talk of "takeover" I remember, Taint was the topic initially.
If they have a young charismatic leader, they might just be putting the cult in permaculture.
Interestingly, on christianpermaculture.org, they mention Salatin and Holzer as permaculture resources but no others.
I hope they have a good life and enjoy their farm, but I think they might be confusing people by conflating pc and religion.
Actually, I think the prefixes are exclusionary in and of themselves, rather than the argument that they are being excluded.
Btw -- infixes are really awesome and from a reliable source, only one exists, in-f'ing-credible
Damn, I got pulled back in.
I still can't see how a single thread, with one reply, can be tainting permaculture.
No doubt we won't be able to agree on this. But I think there is a distinct difference between people taking permaculture into their own group, and somehow infecting permaculture as a whole with the values and practices of that group. I simply don't see the latter happening (except to the extent that permaculture originated from a white western world view).
Have a look at these examples...
Rainbow Valley Farm, one of the premier permaculture institutions, demonstration farms and Pc educators in New Zealand:
"21 ha organic property designed on permaculture principles and ethics. The farm has inspired thousands of people over 23 years in sustainable living and the principles of premaculture in action.
To achieve sustainable living, the property provides an exemplary model to encourage and educate others on a more environmentally-friendly approach to how we can live in sync with nature.
EDUCATION CENTRE
We run an educational centre for permaculture and natural sustainable concepts from a Maori view. "
http://rainbowvalley.co.nz/
Should they not be teaching permaculture alongside the Maori world view? Will doing so 'taint' permaculture in NZ or globally?
PiNZ (NZ national permie group) annual hui 2009:
"Come immerse yourself in tikanga Maori and kaupapa permaculture."
http://www.greylynn2030.co.nz/2009/0...maculture-hui/
Again, is this going to taint permaculture? Should they stop? Should David Holmgren not have attended that meeting and not done a presentation at it?
"International Permaculture Design Course with Geoff Lawton, Rikirangi Gage, Kay Baxter, Bob Corker and Others....
An intensive two week course covering the principles of natural design in agriculture, horticulture, land use, housing, community development with an emphasis on Maori perspectives. "
http://permaculture.org.au/2008/04/1...n-nz/#more-343
These are all really good things. It's vital in NZ that Pc is accepted and adopted by Maori. And that will change permaculture, in a good way IMO.
In what ways is this different from other groups adopting permaculture?
Well thanks for sharing that.
Oh, okay, so just like the terra forming is site specific, the development and incorporation of the the existing unseen structures need to be site specific too (morality ideas, legal structures, etc)
I swear I have heard somewhere that the unseen structures are the most difficult part of permaculture to deal with.
So, just as long as the PDC isn't disseminated as Faeries and Goblins and such, once you get home, make it work for your area.
Well, I may be opinionated, but I am open to new ideas.
Fruitful discussion.
Yes I think so. Keeping the integrity of the PDC seems important, and also if people are using the term permaculture commercially or to teach. Otherwise, people will take Pc into their lives and make it work for what they need. It will evolve both formally and informally.
Have you seen this?
http://permaculture.org.au/2010/01/1...wton/#commentsIf you teach a “permaculture” course without having attended a “permaculture design certificate course” yourself and you teach within the ethics of permaculture and just call it a course on permaculture, then nobody cares. To issue a “Permaculture Design Course” certificate you would have to print it yourself and your students would have to verify that you covered the 14 chapters of “The Permaculture Designers Manual” before they would be eligible for a “Permaculture Diploma” see http://www.tagari.com for details.
If you are teaching or operating a business under the name of permaculture but outside the ethics then you will be challenged by the movement and our supporters and even the British government has been challenge and made to change the definition of permaculture within the court of law. There is every skill set and profession amongst the graduates of the PDC globally who support the movement and are prepared to protect its integrity. This was a very clever strategy created by Bill Mollison to protect the movement as it grew into its present form with 1000’s of PDC’s being taught every day.
Comment by Geoff Lawton — January 16, 2010 @ 2:14 pm
Hat tip Leila: http://www.permies.com/t/14679/perma...k-your-culture
I hadn't heard about the UK govt thing, does anyone know about that?
I think it's important to spread that Lawton quote around, because I have seen people say you can't teach permaculture without a PDC. I've also seen people say the ethics aren't important.
Turns off huge chunks of the population in the US "heartland."Originally Posted by milifestyle
.gif ":)")
There's also a libertarian gun-wielding homesteader image of permaculture that surely appeals to those "heartland" people though... Honestly, I say why not just let it evolve?
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