Victoria takes a step backwards

[Michaelangelica]

good maybe this whole thing can be quashed before it kills our economies, here at least in q

oh and i do know there is an industry behind the tax as most people also know but it is still a tax in form where the lowest common denominator the people pay for it.

len

pay now,
or pay more later

[gardenlen]

that is unbelievable, we are going to pay more and more and more for here to eternity and nothing will ever change, this tax industry is a rort that will never go away, replant the habitat instead of don quixote windmills, that will suck up our paltry 1.6% of a grand total of 20% of so called CO2 that manged to make its way into the upper atmosphere. and the day china has any sort of carbon stuff like this when they are planning on increasing their now 300 or so belcher power plants by building another 300 or so using our coal and their clean burn technology, i might turn in my grave. simply just won't happen me turn in my grave that is. common sense says that can't happen hey?

so we pay now and forever we pay more later

len

[S.O.P]

Yes, we will always be taxed, more and more, in our current societal norms.

Some taxes are dropped, some are added. You got used to the GSTax. Some 'taxes' and schemes such as the ETS are needed to force people to do something, anything. While you may be sustainable, 99% of people, and companies are not. A 'tax' that forces better behaviours is a 'tax' worth having.

What if, under an amend to the legislation, your garden is a tax-deduction due to the carbon storage? The Tax Office come to your property, measure carbon in the soil and you trade that for money or a reduction in other taxes?

[Pakanohida]

S.O.P. in that regards wouldn't that just push the agenda of the same ol shit? Carbon "offset" are if I am not mistaking, are something for people to buy into to feel better about what they shouldn't of been doing in the 1st place.

Wouldn't a change in our practices as humans on this planet be better to change instead of more bureaucracy?

[S.O.P]

I hear you.

Emissions trading is about dangling a carrot in front of a polluter and saying "if you stop polluting, you won't pay so much tax". The polluter being obsessed by money should jump at that carrot.

It's a crappy system but is there any other way to stop people being obsessed by money?

[gardenlen]

g'day S.O.P,

well they are not likely to be coming and rewarding people who are trying to do the right thing now are they, my goodness everyone would change and this carbon stuff would not be needed ='s less income for the gov', they will apply their rubbery figures for the benefit of farmers as some mamby pamby sweetener.

pretty poor carrot really hey? the polluter just passes any costs on to their consumers that is us! hey? and when we stop buying as their product gets too expensive they go off shore creating more unemployment. so the polluters in your words feel no pain, and why should they take on somewhat expensive change when they can go off shore and make no change at all and their products will still sell in store. meanwhile of course our dole bill goes up with a reducing army of workers to pay tax, our cost of food, power, water and fuel etc.,. goes up and up and up, all hand in glove, and if we stopped mining and selling coal black and brown our economies would have no income.

now teh obsessed with money factor cuts right across the board not just gov' or just as greedy business but people as well worst are those that think they are wealthy and self sufficient, the yuppies who take on these feel good measures not realising that they are very likely to end up down here with those who cannot afford the basics of life. you know those basics needed to live in this lucky country. so the obsession with money across the board will never change not to forget the pressure share holders bring to bear as they demand dividends short term, the whole money cycle is a cancer to big to treat.

so no rewards just pain for all we don't need to put our bin out each week but might as well the truck still drives past causing all that pollution revving up to move on so we might as well avail ourselves before this tax takes the affordability of rubbish removal out of grasps. not aware of any taxes that have been dropped that would assist pensioners say? stop all the feel good subsidising and put it back into public health at least PH is an utter shambles. keep in mind the need for money thing drives the senior scientists along with their ego's and need for power.

len

[Pakanohida]

pretty poor carrot really hey?

Len, S.O.P, et. all... I'm not sure, but I think it is a GMO carrot.

[S.O.P]

g'day S.O.P,

len

All true, all money saved by industry moving to greener methods will no doubt incur a higher cost to the consumer and an absorbing of the profit without winding back retail costs when their trading is at the highest. Including the government.

But, profiteering is at the highest it's ever been, and no doubt will continue to rise. I don't think any company needs a 'carbon tax' as an excuse to put up prices. Have you been in Coles or Woolies lately? Or even a bottle-o, owned by Coles or Woolies? As long as some crappy tax forces some company somewhere to stop polluting at the absolute maximum, it's a win for the environment, no matter how small it is compared to the rest of the polluting world.

Did you know that 50% of your rates go into maintaining roads? Environmental departments were decimated so that more roads could be built and more potholes filled. Any road project of about 50 metres was more than my truck's entire budget for a year, and I planted trees non-stop 9 days a fortnight. Rates, taxes, bills are going to increase to support these non-sustainable things we call our society.

[gardenlen]

the gov' should have the integrity to be aware of profiteering and stop, but no hope there those profiteering are their mates.

and what do we do with our roads and highways? more and more vehicles are going onto them, the bruce highway up here is a national disgrace.

there is no affordable vehicles on the radar, that would run on other than fossil fuel and rubber tyres, and roads will still be needed, what could replace long haul trucks? we have no space in modern housing development to grow food nearer the consumer, farmers are pushed out further and further. these things may not be sustainable but this carbon industry isn't either and never will be. yep well aware about coles and woolies duopoly paying the farmer little and retailing exhorbitant prices for food that is not that fresh, don't drink grog, but neither should be investing funds into grog shops people need affordable fresh food.

profiteering is driven for the benefit of the company and its investor share holders blood money.

len

[Grahame]

Governments won't do good stuff until people do good stuff. People think it is the role of government to do good stuff. People need to take responsibility - response ability. People don't' really know how to respond. Schools, education, TV and all that other junk have dulled peoples ability to respond to the real world. Politicians/Governments have so little understanding of the real world and almost no ability to respond to it.

Humans have lost touch with nature, governments represent and intensify this detachment. It is up to us as the real people to take responsibility and to respond accordingly.

I say that economies must fail, all this has come about because of 'economies'. But, we certainly need to manage the decent, otherwise the decent will be swift and painful. Governments are completely unable to manage a decline, it is not within their nature. If people sit around waiting for governments to do something, then we are deeply and painfully screwed.

I suspect we are indeed, deeply and painfully screwed already.