Hold on a minute....

[TheDirtSurgeon]

There was a short-lived thread in this section -- "A must-watch controversial doco!"

I regret that I missed it before the thread got locked... and I do hope I'm not breaking any forum rules by resurrecting the subject, but I will make every effort to keep on topic, and not derail into the tinfoil-hat realm.

I am a curious sort by nature, so when objections arise to pieces of information, I tend to seek them out, rather than dismiss them out of hand.

So when the matter of Lyndon LaRouche came up (who is not actually in the linked film), I took it upon myself to investigate, and actually watch the film. Incidentally, while many dismiss LaRouche as a lone crank, he does talk a lot of sense if you listen. While like anyone else he does inject his own semantics, and thus must be taken as an individual human being, he is not stupid, and he is not a nutter.

So a few things came to mind through the course of the film....

One. The film attempts to dissect the notion of "ecology" as the notion that the biosystems on this planet are always and forever in equilibrium, and that mankind only disrupts and destroys those systems. It does a rather half-assed job of it, in my opinion. I've heard Mollison do a better job in 5 minutes, even though that may not have been his intent. This planet's biology is by no means stable, and I should hope that anyone who takes permaculture's first commandment -- observation -- seriously, would have recognized that.

Two. Certain groups of people, and certain individuals, have used environmentalism as a cloak to further aims other than environmentalism. We know this. Look at BP, for crying out loud. British Petroleum. Now their marketing campaign is "Beyond Petroleum." Does anyone really believe that?

Does anyone really believe that Al Gore lives by his words? There is an agenda afoot, and we ignore it at our own peril. Does anyone really think that cap & trade, and carbon taxes, will repair the damage we are doing to our biosphere? All of that is just a money making scheme. We already know the carbon sequestration capabilities of building topsoil. The real solutions are simple, effective, cheap, and come in little bites. That is to say, the real solutions won't make any profit for Wall Street.

Three. Climate change and global warming. I don't care about this. Why? Because all we have at this point are theories. But what do we have as fact? Pollution. Wasted energy. Wasted resources. And all the evils that come associated. Do we really have to propound theories? Or can we just deal with some ugly realities... and in the process of dealing with those realities, deal with the exact things the theorists want?

I don't think the film necessarily thrusted at supporting modern chemical-warfare agriculture. At least, I hope that's not what's behind it. But we do need to think about -- observe -- everything that comes our way. It is true that industrial agriculture is a bad thing... an unsustainable thing. I don't think any of us have any doubt about that. But it is also a fact of human life that we always learn the wrong ways of doing things before we realize the better way. It was inevitable that we should go through the bad ways before we realize that.

Four. The prior conversation degenerated rapidly into Jewish conspiracy talk. There was a time in my life I thought it was that simple. It's not. Nothing is ever simple, when it comes to history and how it happens. There is only one thing certain: we did not arrive where we are because of a random series of coincidences.

Five. I would have hoped that permaculture people (observation first) would have at least watched the referenced material before coming to conclusions... and even then, should not have drawn conclusions at all, but simply added the information to their knowledge base. I noticed that the first response to the post came in a shorter period of time than the film lasted. I can only conclude that responses came without investigation. This is not the permaculture way.

---------------------

I have more, but I'll leave that for later, if this new thread goes well. It is my hope that we can keep it to the matters at hand. We cannot ignore the fact that there are sinister agendas which use environmentalism as camouflage. Let's deal with that fact, as the referenced film tries, but ultimately fails, to reveal.

[Finchj]

It is too bad that you didn't have time to join the thread because this is the type of post that reasonable people can engage with. NWO/Zionist Bankers/UN global government do not deserve the time of day, in my opinion. The whole holocaust-in-slow-motion conspiracy doesn't hold water.

Your five observations are worth thinking about.

In response:

1- From what I know of ecology, the common consensus is that ecosystems are not in balance. Different actors at different times create constant change. Dave Jacke in Edible Forest Gardens does a good job in the first volume talking about this. The "classical" view was that, say, regions with climates suitable to forests will reach a "climax" stage. The more modern notion recognizes that disturbances happen with regularity and that there is no "climax" as things are always changing. So, by the sounds of it, the movie is dealing with an out dated definition of ecology- AFAIK. Therefore it is dishonest to discuss ecology as it was taught verus how it is taught and understood currently.

2- Yes, greenwashing does occur. As does feigning support for the environment to further other aims. All of this happens. We can recognize that this exists, but still maintain a positive view of environmentalism as a whole. RE: Al Gore, IIRC, his son served Patagonian tooth fish at his wedding- which is indefensible for anyone considering themselves to care about environmentalism. And I agree, the real solutions won't make the money that Wall St. demands and therefore will not be touted by the mainstream media (which they own).

3- Until someone can tell me why the summer Arctic sea ice has been in severe retreat for decades, I'm going to go with the vast majority of scientists and say that our climate is generally warming. I'd also like to hear arguments that can explain how we can burn millions of years of fossilized solar energy over the course of two centuries and not expect to see any atmospheric changes. But I'm also with you: even if climate change were not happening, we still need to learn how to lessen our impact and, better, rejuvenate the biosphere.

4- Couldn't have said it better myself. The world isn't as simple as the conspiracy suggests. Permaculture teaches us just how complicated a garden is... thinking about the global human condition is a few orders of magnitude above that!

5- I would have watched the film is the original poster hadn't begun spreading a disgusting conspiracy theory and denigrating the positions of the other posters. I stand by what I wrote before the thread was locked. The NWO conspiracy is beyond the pale. While some of the topics that make up the theory are worthy of discussion, I find it odd that folks can spread such vicious accusations without thinking through what it really would take for millions of humans to be involved in a plot to destroy 90% of humanity and enslave the rest.

So, I appreciate your approach to the subject because it talks about the issues without falling into the conspiracy trap.

[Pakanohida]

Finchj,

Did you know someone actually swam OVER the North Pole in a speedo? The man did it to provide more awareness that the ice really IS melting. I mean a heated wetsuit is one thing, but this man lost his balls and did this in a speedo!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HALd9FY5-VQ

[Finchj]

Just watched the video. Thats a brave move! Almost 20 minutes in polar water. Give me the Gulf of Mexico any day over that.

[Grasshopper]

I stand by what I wrote before the thread was locked. The NWO conspiracy is beyond the pale. While some of the topics that make up the theory are worthy of discussion, I find it odd that folks can spread such vicious accusations without thinking through what it really would take for millions of humans to be involved in a plot to destroy 90% of humanity and enslave the rest.

Wether you call it NWO or what ever you like the reality is 1% have the money and the rest are slaves.
Monsanto, resource wars,working poor,banana republics ,petro dollars,world bank,CIA,Mossad,Zionism.Cold Wars, Wars against Terror,State Sponsored Terror, Exporting of Democracy, Axis of Evil,The Green Revolution,Food Aide,Globalisation,The UN, Nato, all sounds like control to me.
As to whether the aim is destroy humanity......the system needs shoppers and workers to be able to function the more the cogs turn the more profits for the 1%
unfortunately resources aren't finite so 90% probably will die.
Was it premeditated no,just short sighted greed and religious psychosis.

The film has an obvious right wing anti science anti global warming, BAU bent but It would be nonsensical to not subscribe to at least some portions of the conspiracies but in different contexts.

I tend to not believe "the truth" as there is usually lots more truth in the lies.

[Finchj]

First of all, resource wars have been part and parcel of the human existence since recorded history began. Secondly, the struggle for power has been integral to our species for a very, very long time. None of this is new.

Just because we can list a long line of entities doesn't mean they are all in cahoots in a plot to carry out a holocaust of the human existence. Everything you listed exists. Whether there is a concerted effort by the 1% of humanity to control and exterminate the rest of the population is another question entirely.

[Grasshopper]

re read my second paragraph

As to whether the aim is destroy humanity......the system needs shoppers and workers to be able to function the more the cogs turn the more profits for the 1%
unfortunately resources aren't finite so 90% probably will die.
Was it premeditated no,just short sighted greed and religious psychosis.

except remove this spelling mistake

[Finchj]

Alright, reread. I agree with the first part of your statement up to 1%.

This is where we differ: I don't believe 90% of humanity is going to perish- whether through a premeditated Final Solution or negligence. The power that the top 1% hold is tenuous at best. Our world is too dynamic. If we continue on our present course, I agree the chances aren't good. But there is no way that the next 20 years will be anything like the last 20, the last 100.

This is the first time we are facing such a clear and present existential danger. This is the moment when humanity gets to choose whether to mature as a species and recognize where it went wrong. I believe that our species will make that leap of faith and choose not to become the only species (that we know of) to knowingly commit collective suicide.

If 90% of us are to perish in the process, I say that it won't be at the hand of a conspiracy by the wealthy 1%. But rather due to our inability to believe in ourselves.

I will say that I agree that religious psychosis is a leading factor in our headlong rush into disaster. While not overtly religious, I can't help but be reading the first few chapters of Genesis and find myself shaking my head. Humanity kicked itself out of Eden by deciding that it was separate from, rather than a part of the whole.

If you stick your neck out and say "we don't have to live this way", then so-called fundamentalists will attempt to destroy your reputation with other believers. If the Rapture happened, they'd be out of a job. So they lie to us and make us believe that humanity is the problem. If they truly believe their Bible, then they have to believe that God doesn't make anything imperfect. Yet they keep shaming us for a sin (supposedly forgiven?) committed thousands of years ago. Better to tell us all that we are flawed humans and have to suffer for something none of us committed. Dare to challenge that ridiculous notion and by God, you are in for a world of hurt.

Not only that, self-described True Christians (TM) here in the US have given into the hands of the kleptocrats. The wealthiest 1% are afraid that if humanity comes together and harnesses our immense potential then they will inevitably lose the wealth they have accrued at the expense of giving a shit. So they join forces with vocal religious "literalists" (wouldn't want to think, now would we?!), playing to their fear of becoming as irrelevant as all the other faiths they stamped out through various vile methods over the centuries. Except this time they fear us doing for ourselves what they either couldn't or wouldn't do for the thousand plus years highly organized Christianity has been burning witches and collecting tithes.

Both the church (and other, but not all, entrenched religious hierarchies) and oligarchs fear the health, education, and freedom of choice that secular & modern Western societies provide collectively for their citizens. Hence the almost-universal approach in the Anglosphere by right-wing political parties: divide and conquer. Disparage government- even democratic government our ancestors fought and died for, as an inefficient and archaic. Call for government to vote to destroy itself. Use the people's freedom against them. After all, politicians- like all of humanity- can't serve two masters. Most will gladly sell out for a seat at the trough. Our oligarchic governments seem hell bent on sacrificing humanity on the altar of our foremost tool- one, we are told, is a useful fiction.

I sincerely believe that humanity is capable of recognizing the situation for what it is and refuse to play along to end of this death march. Which is where this culture of morose exploitation inevitably ends when the fossilized energy we have been abusing for a few centuries runs out. People are beginning to have that

"Wait, your telling me we have used half of all the fossil fuels we can feasibly reach... and this is all we have to show for it?!"

moment. If a war with Iran erupts, it should be our duty to refuse to participate. Our governments want to tell us that we should ration our own energy use, but they get to bomb the living fuck out of our future in the most energy intensive activity known to mankind?

"What do we get out of all this and where are we going?" needs to be on the minds of all of us. Because there isn't a mammoth conspiracy that cannot be challenged. Those currently in power would love you to believe all sorts of wild and crazy things about just how much control they have. The imagination we are all endowed with was the greatest gift we ever got, and its also our greatest enemy.

There are simply "too many good people allowing bad people to do bad things." Keep that in mind.

Peace.

[Pakanohida]

"There is something changing in the climate of consciousness on this planet today." - Public Enemy, Fear of a Black Planet, 1990

[mischief]

hmmm, the war They are trying to start with Iran is more likely to do with the fact that Iran owns its own national bank, like afew other Arabic nations, rather than to do with coverted resources.
Not to be picky.