Is the personal effort enough?

[Grahame]

I mostly live by the tenet that the best way to change things is to be the change that you wish to see in the world. There are a vast number of aspects to this, many of which reach into psychology and esoterica, but many are also physical in nature.

I have been approaching my 'Permaculture' practices from the standpoint that if I do it, and do it with all my heart then I will influence people and through that allow them to influence others, and through that change the world. I still mostly believe this... But, at times it seems like I am just a snowball throwing myself at the sun and saying 'cool it man!' Which has lead me to start thinking that the personal passive process is just not enough. I agree that a movement will have a greater lasting effect if it is a grass roots movement. But, I am also starting to think we are going to have to DO MORE than just that. I am starting to think we really do need to become a cohesive force that takes on the system with a frontal attack. Business, politics, schools. I guess we have a few permaculture businesses, but they are very narrow in range. We have every little if any political push (one can hardly count the greens). And the 'education'/indoctrination system in my opinion is a joke. Sure we are starting to see some kindergartens with vege patches and chooks, but it is still peripheral to what is called learning.

So, what can be done? I'm up for it. And if nothing can be done, then I'm gonna just go back to the personal effort but most likely an ethically compromised effort. I know there are permies out there, who have been doing this thing for a while and just finding that there is no structural support, so they are finding themselves drifting back into the mainstream because it is just not possible to do this thing alone.

Thoughts? Fellow conspirators?

Grahame

[Adam]

Grahame,

You make some very valid points here, and I can't really disagree with anything that you are saying. Going it alone can be very difficult, frustrating, alienating, and, as you noted, somewhat pointless. I think so long as permaculture continues to be a fringe movement (which I would argue that it still is, especially for those outside Australia), a lot of permies will continue to struggle by themselves and without much support. So here are two reasons why I think permaculture is having difficulty gaining wider acceptance:

1. Lack of structure/organization -- Perhaps it's just that most people who are into permaculture are not really the "structured" types, but it does not lessen the dire need for some sort of greater structure within the movement. Right now there are so many different permaculture organizations doing their own thing and it seems like everyone is moving in different directions. We really need a central organization of some type to act as a permaculture hub -- a social network, information portal, research center, permaculture site database, forum, and more, all in one place and professionally done (not one of the many individual permaculture websites out there that look like they are frozen in time in 1996) -- THE place to go for permaculture.

2. Lack of scientific grounding -- Permaculture is in desperate need of a scientific foundation. Have you ever tried finding scientific journal articles on permaculture? It's pretty slim pickings. How can we expect to convince others of the benefits of permaculture when we basically have very little research to back up our claims? Even within the academic fields of sustainable development and sustainable agriculture, permaculture still goes pretty much ignored. Permaculture is based on pretty sound logic and I am very convinced of the capacity of permaculture systems to be highly productive in multiple senses. So why has virtually no research on permaculture been done?

So maybe we should be focusing our individual efforts on overcoming these challenges. That's certainly what I intend to do. I think it's a lot easier to do that as part of a local community of permies rather than by oneself, though. Ecovillages and co-ops seem like a pretty good way to do that. Have you given that any thought?

[milifestyle]

I like the idea of structure, but i am wondering if that defeats the intention of permaculture ?

There are many "gardening groups and clubs" around many parts of the world... why not a bi monthly gathering for permaculture (unless of course they already exist and if so... Why din anyone tell meez about em?)

[eco4560]

I was watching something on the ABC last night about religious education in schools and a teacher was talking about how within the Christian faith there is a belief that God provides people with gifts to do stuff for the Christian community. It got me thinking about how within permaculture there are some with the gift of the gab, others who are solid do-ers but can't teach, some are chook people, seedling people, earthwork people, organizing meetings people and so on. I think there is a lot to be said for joining your local permaculture group (or starting one if you don't have one) so that you don't have to solve all the world's problems on your own. The Sunshine Coast has had a group for a very long time, and it's pretty big, and I'm sure that is why the region is probably ahead in terms of the density of permaculturists per head of population, and we have a council working on an Energy Descent Action Plan, and many other positives.
I don't know that Permaculture would benefit from a catholic church approach of one appointed leader who rules top down. More a happy clapper evangelical approach with individuals who get together and make their group what works for them, and have a loose connection with other groups.

[Grahame]

I was out potting up some seedlings and having a thinkitation.

If we imagine the world as an empty place (in terms of permaculture it is really) and we are a small band of humans setting out to colonise it, we wouldn't all spread out into different corners of the world. We would most likely strike out to fertile lands and set up a small community (read eco-villages, intentional communities and the like) Over time these small communities would expand, some would grow larger and become centres perhaps of knowledge, learning and support. Some would move out from the fringes to colonise new areas as appropriate. Places would specialise, trade would flow, where required. This could work. But the problem is, there is a rampant disease flowing across the country eating up all that is good and valuable as it gorges on the land.

Perhaps I really do need to consider an intentional community, but now that I have started on this path it is increasingly more difficult to move. The system still requires us to use money in order to escape it. Also I won't be contented with a closed community that has no room for expansion. So perhaps I am more in need of a Transition Town. Are there any worth there salt out there in OZ, or is it all just conjecture and hope?

This country really does suffer from a distinct case of lethargy and is tends to suck me down with it.

When will something give!?

[Grahame]

You posted whilst I was typing Eco. I agree, I think there are a whole bunch of different people with excellent skills in the permaculture world and I wonder how we can better pool those resources to make a real difference.

The problem for me is that I have never really enjoyed leading and I would be pretty crappy at starting up a permaculture club. But I guess I could get it rolling and hope some leadership cream rises to the top...

Something for me to consider.

[ecodharmamark]

G'day Grahame/All

"Is the personal effort enough?"

The short answer, yes. You should do what ever you feel is enough.

The long(er) answer follows:

Go back to the very basics: care for the Earth, care for people, return the surplus and share the wealth. By doing the first, the second and the third come naturally. If not, why do it at all? This we all (well, nearly all who would gather here at the PRI Forum) know. It is how we do it where we begin to diverge. Luckily, we have a set of principles to help guide us. Not that they should be slavishly followed, but instead considered in a manner that suits our own agenda, justifiable only to ourselves. By using the principles as our guide (or, as a way of helping us remember that the sum of all the parts is greater than the whole), we begin to see the natural connections that exist beyond ourselves and our immediate significant others. We begin to see ourselves in connection with the wider global community. Those connections have always been there. It is only through a process of living in the affluent world (for those of us that are 'privileged' to do so) that we have come to equate the neo-liberal/economic-capitalist form of 'individualism' as the norm. We have been 'tricked' into believing that 'the market' is the supreme being. We have lost touch with our own sovereignty, and by doing so we have lost touch with our wider community, the 'global commune', or those to whom we are reliant upon for our very existence. We, all of humanity, we must share our home, this planet we call Earth. We must share what is left of our precious non-renewables, and we must do so in a manner that aids in the development of a renewable resource future. We have no choice in this matter. We do it not for ourselves, we do it for our children, and their children, and their children's children... The market can not and will not provide for all. Permaculture is just one of many credible keys, all of which have the ability to help us unlock our collective potential. Alone, we exist only in our own mind. Together, we exist in the minds of all others. It is through being part of something bigger that we truly become closer to our own reality. Build your 'village', Grahame, and they will come. In fact, they are probably already there.

Further reading: The Society for Utopian Studies (http://www.utoronto.ca/utopia/links.html)

Markos (the tired one)

[mischief]

Another thing to recognize, is that the person you help or affect by what and how you do things may never come back to tell you how you have in fact affect their lives.

Its like the smile in the morning that gets passed from one person to another and so on all day.

Another thing is this.
Permaculture is an organic food movement.
It is part of a larger group of like minded people who use the method that suits them best.
What makes us different is the concious effort to apply the Ethics and Principles in our efforts.
There are probably many out there who do the same and dont realise it.

Little things make a big difference.
example: In Auckland I had a chat with the elderly neighbour over the fence about my worry concerning the lack of bees in our gardens.
There was a honey man just up the road.
I mentioned that I thought too many people were using pesticides(I wasnt cos I could afford them even if I did want to use them),
Her reply was yes and she was going to stop using them (too) and never did.

Cheer up,there are more of you out there than you realise.

[Grahame]

Yeah, some days you just feel like a little more immediate response form the universe. Ya know? I suspect a lot of this has to do with me wanting to be a little more ethical and principled than I have been. ;) I know I can't expect the world to do what I am not already doing, but sometimes it would be nice! A little bit of give every now and again. Which means I am now back to my previous belief that it is ALL about being the change that you wish to see in the world. And a big part of that is recognising the difference between the being and the what-you-wish-to-see. And taking responsibility for that gap. And then closing it.

So let me start bridging the gap by saying that I love you all. When I look in the mirror and I see you folks staring out at me and if I am paying attention I can find real direction and for that I thank you all.

Peace and love.

[philippa]

Hello Grahame, you may be somewhat gratified to know that your post "Is the personal effort enough?" gave me the impetus to become a member so that I can reply to your post! So you must be doing something right.

[philippa]

Now, I'll just work out how to use this damn newfangled device....
The personal effort is the embodiment of your ethics; it's that simple. It's the physical manifestation of your thoughts. And it IS good enough, or at least I think it should be good enough, to stay home and garden and grow your own food. In so doing you help yourself and the planet.
I've never been one to go forth and spruik. I'm a do-er, not a teacher and I just bumble around on my own place and work things out as I go. If friends come over I can't help showing them the beautiful compost that's brewing, or sending them off with some greens for dinner, but then those same visitors often come laden with eggs, so I'm not really teaching them anything they don't know; just preaching to the converted.

When it comes to big shifts of consciousness, which is the situation our society faces with climate change, I really think we need a benevolent dictator. Democracy has just given us more of the same, but with the appearance of it being fairer. In the meantime, keep doing what you're doing and you might jag a few more people like me to join the forum.:)

[milifestyle]

welcome to the forum Phillippa...

[pippimac]

I've wanted to do stuff in schools for ages and tomorrow I'm going to meet the principal of a local primary to discuss running an elective that will involve gardening, recycling, composting and worm farming.
Hopefully I can work it in with science and home ec curriculums.
Get 'em when they're young, I reckon!

[Terra]

Grahame
Other people will only join the movement when they believe they have a reason to or "need" to , either for financial , health (this will be a big one ) , or location to name a few . I believe that for myself to be a full on permie it is beyond my physical capacity mainly due to time constraints to manage an area on my own that would supply even just my family food needs , i am in good physical shape strong ect .I am a good efficient gardener however the constant supply through periods of cold and wet and intense heat the storage issues just growing food is only a small part of the whole picture. It really is an enormous challenge to plan and stay ahead the occasional crop failure for one reason or another has to be factored in , last year i had peas to burn this year constant rain wet wet wet the disease has all but wiped them out . Now most people would look at this and run as hard as they could because it would frighten them and rightly so they dont have the background or skills to manage the feast and famine , if you have no constant supply you dont eat . Now we dont all have to be in that deep , i would love to grow 90% and many probably do and good luck to them , climate here makes it difficult and sadly even though i am 50yrs old i dont know anyone other than my sister that i could reliably swap produce with , hardly anyone around here grows much and those that do are 40kms away, so i will echo Marko "build your villiage" If people can learn to help each other and share knowledge without a price attached it would be a good start , i think location is the key and a group of like minded people who live reasonably close to each other for support , its no good if when your feelin a bit flat you have to travel 500kms to to lift your spirits . Success breeds confidence then we can push to be noticed , for now i will do what i can and the rest can wait.
Rob

[sun burn]

Maybe because permaculture is such a huge commitment, you will never see a majority of people voluntarily changing their lifestyle to take it up. On the other hand, you could just look at it as that Permaculture just hasn't reached its tipping point yet. If you want to influence others to take up this course of action, then i guess you have to do more than whatever it is you are doing but you could just be creating heartache for yourself unless you can cope with a lot of failure and rejection. For my part, i am happy to muddle along without needing to take over the world. But i've already noticed that on my photoblog, others are responding. They may not take up the model straight away but some seeds take a while to germinate. For my part, i knew of permaculture 20 years ago but i wasn't then ready to direct my life this way. Now i am.

[eco4560]

I'm curious about what people mean as being a full on permie? What is the spectrum? Non - permie - pretending to be a permie - a little bit permie - a bit more permie - really permie - full on permie - too much permie?
Isn't a little bit permie by a large number of people more powerful than really permie for a small number?
Surely being permie isn't like being a little bit of a virgin?

[permasculptor]

I believe the primary responsibility is to be the change . This will work for me at my pace for my reasons an will give me strength when tempted to stray from my path.Our current political and social environment is not a place of wisdom it is one of fear it will consume all your wisdom and demand more without listening to it.It will use you up.Wasted effort is a pollution too! Bingy has taught us that if you spout shit long enough some of it sticks and that is the kind of energy the mainstream runs on.In the not to distant future we the active permaculturists will have the water the food the health the knowledge and hopefully the wisdom to continue.and eventually that will become mainstream for the survivors.I feel we are at a juncture where we have been warned and to make the decision not to act will become fatal.At some point I am expecting a mass extinction of the lazy the stupid and the weak .so the more you can be the change ,the better your quality of life in the future will be. Of course the more you become the change the more you have to offer and probably want to share so I try to concentrate my energy on those who are aware of the issues and have a honest desire for help. I cant change anyone But I can show them how I have changed!

[milifestyle]

I'm curious about what people mean as being a full on permie? What is the spectrum? Non - permie - pretending to be a permie - a little bit permie - a bit more permie - really permie - full on permie - too much permie?
Isn't a little bit permie by a large number of people more powerful than really permie for a small number?
Surely being permie isn't like being a little bit of a virgin?

Spot on... (In my mind any way...)

[purplepear]

Permaculture is from my view the only game that can repair the earth and the one movement that starts with an ethic. We do have a huge responsibility to teach others a way to care for the earth and each other. We need to do this as it best siuits us. There is no profit in a contribution that detracts from you own welbeing, that is to say that we need to return the excess, the energy or product that we have in surplus of our own needs and the needs of our families - to do more than that is in contravention of the permaculture ethic.

The beautiful Rosemary Morrow once told be ( I hope I quote her well) - that we need to be less concerned with what we achieve but to be sure to work towards being able to say that we had done the thing we could. ( It sounded better from her)

Yes - personal effort is enough and if we can influence the people either side of us to do the PDC and they influence a few more then we will reach a tipping point soon and that is enough. IMO

[Grahame]

I'm glad you joined up phillipa. Welcome to the forum. Thanks for all the responses folks, I've been enjoying the discussion.

That is pretty much the way I am thinking again Purplepear. Rosemary's words are very Taoist...

Chapter 2 of the Tao Te Ching as translated by Stephen Mitchell

When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.

Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.

Therefore the Master
acts without doing anything
and teaches without saying anything.
Things arise and she lets them come;
things disappear and she lets them go.
She has but doesn't possess,
acts but doesn't expect.
When her work is done, she forgets it.
That is why it lasts forever.

[philippa]

Thanks Grahame,
I was talking to a friend the other day and he mentioned that he was a bit annoyed with the permaculture movement and, to him, it seemed like permaculturalists were a self-righteous lot who disregarded any convention just on principle. I was a bit miffed but I let it go at the time.

And since then, I have been thinking about what he said and I think there really is some truth in this opinion. Maybe we do come across as self righteous. People really do not like to be constantly told they are doing things wrong, or that their international flights are destroying the earth, or that they should be more self reliant and hand over the surplus they have made. In fact, a lot of people see surplus and holidays as their reward for eating shit and working hard in "the system" when they would rather not.

So I don't know how you go about changing people's attitudes without seeming like a rabid proselytizer. I agree with the "get em when they're young" philosophy and, having a five year old child myself, I have put this into action. My daughter attends a school of around 80 kids and we have a school garden club which meets to talk, laugh and garden on Tuesday afternoons. This is outside of school hours but we consistently have around a dozen kids who stay behind and garden. And I am so pleased to say that the kids just LOVE it. Yesterday, as part of our end of term garden club day we harvested some of the produce from the garden and parents, kids and teachers cooked up a feast and ate it.

I mention all this because I think if you look at the total global picture your mind can easily fixate on the negative stuff around the globe and the small, positive stuff that happens in your own neighbourhood can so easily slip under the radar. And then all seems lost. Perhaps we need to stop being negative about it and start sharing the love. I truly believe in people's generosity of spirit and I think that enthusiasm can be contagious.

Regards and respect to all of you.

[mischief]

uuuww.
Goosebumps!

[andybarks]

Hey Grahame,

Yes! Of course personal effort is enough. Without it, what else do you have, you can't rely on others to do it.

In my mind (and I know this is going to sound morbid), but if you looked at human colonisation over a long period of time (say geological time for my sake ;) ) then it would almost look like we are some kind of virus multiplying, spreading and wiping out others, until eventually we will wipe ourselves out. In a blink of an eye we have caused many, many species of animals to die out. There used to be megafauna roaming the australia continent, until we decided that our needs were greater than theirs. I know this is negative, and believe me I'm not a negative person, but in a way its kinda true. Did anyone see the David Attenborough doco the other night about how many people is too many people for this earth? Very interesting!

[sun burn]

Yes I saw that but there was a key point not addressed by the doco. That is consumption. The crucial factor these days is not only how many people but also how much do people consume. The two factors should be discussed together. I'll make a very rough throwaway guess that the consumption of any one adult Australian would equal or be more than the consumption of about 10 average indians. Maybe even more.

[ecodharmamark]

Yes I saw that but there was a key point not addressed by the doco. That is consumption. The crucial factor these days is not only how many people but also how much do people consume. The two factors should be discussed together. I'll make a very rough throwaway guess that the consumption of any one adult Australian would equal or be more than the consumption of about 10 average indians. Maybe even more.

Good guess:

2005 - Australia: 5,897.5 kgoe (kgs oil equiv.); India 491.0 kgoe

2000 - Australia: 5,737.0 kgoe; India 452.0 kgoe

1990 - Australia: 5,106.3 kgoe; India 377.0 kgoe

Source: Earth Trends - World Energy Consumption Per Capita (http://earthtrends.wri.org/searchable_db/results.php?years=all&variable_ID=351&theme=6&country_ID=all&country_classification_ID=all)

[Tezza]

Is the personal effort enough?
Is the personal effort worth while?..

YES!!!:handshake::handshake::handshake::handshake: :handshake::handshake::handshake::handshake:

When youve been doing it for 20 yrs and u could bore a brick with vids and pictures,and you still spin right out over the difference in time and growth:hi:

Im 20 months into my 6th property of permaculture single mindedness.a true blue Uncle "Bill" Devotee.

Nothings changed for me in 99.9% of my ideas. Mostly uneducated geueses :y:..

Spirituality has helped my change of direction but never swaying from the "dream".

Its costa lotta braincells working overtime for years also,finding my/our path (wife)..

Bills got it right coz he is permaculture... So is holmgrem :y::y::y:

I think we get lost when we think too much about doing it which way or ever and not take nature and naturural systems into more consideration...

we gotta think permamancy, plant fruit trees for years long food, over single use veges,

I gave up trying to persuade people.... They gotta see it not hear it...

Do it.. Let them see it..video tape it, photo it ,make love in it, run around naked in it...

GET OUT THERE AND DO IT


Tezza:bow:

[adrians]

I agree, I think we could do wit ha lot more video (youtube etc etc) and pictures of systems.. and to make an broad impact, it needs to be free. Hey Tezza have you got photos / videois of your current system to share? I'm trying do more fruit trees, perenials etc, the vegies are well under control, with us buying only fruit these last few months.

[Tezza]

Yes Adrians i do post pics in here,

[kimbo.parker]

is personal effort enough?

to me never.
not once and now i am forced to the recogniton that ofcourse it never could be...was never part of the plan...we were training an army to train an army etc.

the broad objectives of sustainability were social in essence....society does not change quickly by 'individuals' ...hence the present discussion.
we can rightly point the finger at our leadership ( the self serving lizard bastards ) for the total absence of kosher environmental policies, and the absence of social engineering required to bring about the changes....

people need to be shown....just like we were shown not to litter. ( government tv ads of the 70's)

the problem is; when a mass of people need to be shown,,,this 'mass' is recognised for its potential profit,,,and any thing that might have really been good and worthwhile is corrupted by this profit motive.....and we wind up having to market environmentalism .....which is a bit like trying to 'sell' any intellectual rationale to a vastly stupid market.....

k

[Tezza]

In the END its all personal. You and no one else..

When we maybe thirsty,or hungry or homeless.... If we aint personally effecting our changes.. Well end up like all the rest, baa,baa,baaa. Follow the leader to the nearest refugee camp,or the nearest stand pipe, or the nearest rubbish tip...

I see it allmost daily in the media.. The list of disasters is incredible..

We gotta take responcibility for our own (in)actions..

I wonder if Noah worried himself sick that no one else was building their own arks and joining the Regatta..

Dont really think (anymore)i should waste my breath....

Im happy my lettuces are growing like crazy... im so happy la de dah AQUAPONICS Rules

[Grahame]

OK, I'm gonna think as I type here...

Yesterday I was in the garden lamenting the poor tomato crop I had last year (which really ended up as only cherry type tomatoes) and I was thinking if the lives of my family relied on the way I was gardening I would probably be going to greater efforts. The thought struck me that what I really need to do is to Garden as though my life depended on it. I would soon learn how to be a better grower.

The realisation that I don't already garden as though my life depends on it was a bit of a shock to me. We still haven't taken our lives seriously enough to treat anything we can readily get off farm as a luxury.

Then I started to realise that I am only dabbling in this - because my mind set isn't one that says I am in danger if I don't do a better job. Just like the way society is treating the environmental problems we are faced with. That is to say, until it directly threatens our way of life in tangible ways we are not likely to take it seriously, or at least not as seriously as we need too. And this is the problem I see with the way we as a movement are living permaculture, some of us think we can dabble in it, just do bits and pieces, grow a few things in our back yard whilst still living mostly in the comfortable consumer world. Of course there are exceptions, many probably, but they are not really the face the rest of society is seeing as permaculturists and permaculture. The overwhelming representation is that you can do a little bit and that is OK. But really it doesn't seem to be; we are not doing it as though our lives depend on it, because for all intents and purposes in this moment they don't. So the motive must come from with in, we must rise above our reptilian minds that seem content when we are fed now with no thought of where the next feed might come from - 'we'll deal with that later!'

So here is my new mantra; Live as though your life depends on it.

Or more accurately... Be the change you wish to see in the world and live as though your life depends on it.

I think the personal effort is all we really have to work with and it will only be enough if it is a really, really big personal effort. Effort being the operative word, because if it is no real effort then it is no effort at all.

Please don't take this as self-righteous permaculture talk as I am telling myself more than anyone else. It's time to lift your game, time to take it up a notch. Live as though the $hit has already hit the fan. Because most likely it has, it's just that the main chunks and splatter haven't blown our way.

Peace

[Tezza]

8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8) 8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)

good thinking and typing

Tezza

[philippa]

I believe that, even if it seems like a lost cause to make an effort, or that your efforts amount to diddlysquat, you should still do it, because that's what you believe in and that's what you know to be the right, conscionable thing to do.
To just say "Oh well, nothing I can do will make a difference" is to turn your back on your beliefs.
Maybe you can't make a difference to the planet, but you can to the small circle of people around you.
And every time you grow your own food you're making a political statement by not engaging in a system.

But Grahame, the path you propose just sounds like sheer hard work. Surely, even if you had a bad year with your tomatoes, someone else had a good year. And perhaps you had a surplus of something else to swap. By all means, grow heaps of food but be prepared to be flexible and don't beat yourself up if you have crop failures. We all do, even the big farmers.

[Grahame]

Hi Phillipa, yes I agree with you about doing your thing in the face of it being a 'lost cause'.

I think it probably is hard work, but the tomatoes were more symbolic of the need to work more efficiently and more precisely. Perhaps tomatoes aren't even the thing I should grow here! I think perhaps I haven't made the point I was trying to make clearly enough. Sometimes I think a good effort is not enough, it needs to be your best effort.

[CraigMackintosh]

Grahame - these may interest:

http://permaculture.org.au/2009/07/13/the-roots-of-change-in-ourselves-or-government-and-industry/

http://permaculture.org.au/2008/10/02/can-permaculture-save-the-world/

And a potential solution we can all empower and be empowered by:

http://permaculture.org.au/2010/09/25/worldwide-permaculture-network-teaser/

[Grahame]

Thanks for the links Craig. I kinda feel a bit like those articles end up asking the same questions as I do. I agreed with what the articles were saying, and I identified with Ted's article as it articulated some of the thoughts I have myself. But I'm not sure they deliver any solution. Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say they deliver solutions but no real methods beyond doing what you can do as an individual. Which is a loop really.

As for your new Worldwide network, I love the idea. Unfortunately, I won't qualify as I've never done a PDC. I don't know if I ever will and perhaps that makes me unqualified to even talk about permaculture with any authority. But that's cool, I don't mind living at the edge. I learn well from books and I've read a lot of David and Bill's works so maybe one day I will do enough to earn an honorary title ;)

I understand the reasons for making PDC's 'compulsory', just as the public service now makes a degree at the very least and a doctorate in many case the basis for employment. It is probably a personal character flaw of mine, but I've never held much truck with that sort of convention, and having worked with many of those 'doctors' hasn't really given me cause to think otherwise.

Man, I am just blurting it all out at the moment.
Peace
Grahame

[CraigMackintosh]

Grahame, I think the point Ted and I are trying to make in those articles is that, no, personal effort is not enough, if that personal effort is restricted to your back yard alone. As important as your 'subversive' back yard is, it'll never be enough if we don't find ways to forge a new system. The economics and politics of the world to an enormous degree shapes and incentivises one kind of world or another. At present it runs on ever-increasing consumption, competiton and extraction, and turning labour into landfill as quickly as possible. Permaculture needs to be driven into mainstream consciousness and practice. It will never happen while government and industry fight us every step of the way. As one commenter on our site put well, "Permaculture cannot exist in a corporate oligarchy".

I think the articles do share solutions - as I said at bottom of my post, "We need to see democracy return to a community hall near you." We need to become more politically active - starting with making the communities around us more aware of the issues we must grapple with, and fast.

See:

http://permaculture.org.au/2010/04/09/permaculture-groups-and-government-influence/

and the 'Transition Handbook' at bottom of this post:

http://permaculture.org.au/2009/12/15/in-transition-the-movie/

I am building this new network to help permies coordinate their efforts and leverage each other's knowledge, etc., to this end - changing society at all levels.

Re your being in the network - I may consider a 'honorary membership' badge we can assign to those who are obviously conversant in permaculture, and who are actually practising it on the ground. I will state that due to my workload, I rarely frequent the forums, as much as I'd like to, so I'm not familiar with the knowledge base you and others have (I'm sure it's extensive!). As such, you might want to consider writing a few articles for the main site about your work on the ground. Such articles, aside from educating and inspiring our readership, also enable me to gauge the appropriateness of granting you such access.

The main point behind having graduates only in the system is to keep its direction on track, ensure healthy comradery and cooperative humanity-saving ambition.

[Grahame]

Thanks again Craig.

Let me say how much I enjoy the quality of the articles on the PRI page. For that I thank you and your team and all the authors. I refer people to the articles and the site quite often. The points you and Ted made on this subject are excellent and I pretty much agree. Although, a part of me still thinks living a right life should be enough :)

One of the things I often tell myself (perhaps as a justification) about why we choose to settle here is that rather than moving to an established permaculture region/village and just fitting in with what was already happening there, it is better to forge new frontiers for permaculture. This may be a misguided idea especially since one of the difficulties for me in that is that I've never really been a leader. In the past I may have been more of a let-my-actions-do the-talking kind of person. Not really one to crave the limelight, or enjoy any kind of light on me. So in some ways it is difficult for me to think beyond showing through demonstration.

Some of us are really good at some things, others at totally different things. I am thinking that sort of communities we are all looking to build are ones where every person is free to play to their strengths. So it then becomes a difficult task for those who find themselves for what ever reason in a place where they are effectively a cog with out a machine.

I think you're right, that I need to attempt a few articles for the main site.

Also, I totally understand why only PDC graduates would normally be accepted, and I don't lay any claim to being an exception. I may even reconsider doing a PDC, if for no other reason that to meet other people with similar interests and to share some time with them.

Best I get off here and think about an article to write ;)

Cheers and keep up the great work!
Grahame

[purplepear]

Bring mum and the kids up to Purple Pear Grahame. We have a PDC starting at the end of October and you will be well looked after and return to Vic by November 7 complete with the PDC and plenty of inspiration to carry you forward.

[CraigMackintosh]

Grahame - totally agree with the concept of forging new frontiers right where you are, rather than doing the oft-failed join-a-commune thing. Also agree we can't all be leaders. Many different plants make up a food forest - many different characters make up humanity. Diversity is stability! Loved the expression 'cog without a machine', also because it so aptly illustrates what I was trying to say. If we work within a 'machine', a system, that is running as it should (heading for sustainability and a stable no-growth economy), then we can happily, and easier, play our role. When the machine is misdesigned - designed to grind us all to shreds - so that it's very difficult for us to actually be the positive cog we want to be, then fixing the machine becomes imperative.

Yes, articles much appreciated. The main page is feeding new people into the forum (one of my intents/strategies). Getting some of the wisdom in the forum onto the main page will only hasten that growth.

Send to editor (at) permaculture.org.au

Thanks for your kind words.

And looks like you have a PDC to attend, courtesy of Purple Pear! :)

[CraigMackintosh]

Grahame - I just scrolled up a bit (had only read your initial post in this thread before now). I note such statements as: "Then I started to realise that I am only dabbling in this - because my mind set isn't one that says I am in danger if I don't do a better job. Just like the way society is treating the environmental problems we are faced with. That is to say, until it directly threatens our way of life in tangible ways we are not likely to take it seriously, or at least not as seriously as we need too."

Exactly! This is why I share a mix of good and bad news - because we don't truly embrace the solution if we still cannot grasp the urgency of the problems. Permaculturists in general have spent the last thirty years thinking of this as an 'alternative lifestyle', not recognising their responsibility to impress upon EVERYONE that there is no alternative. If we don't get permaculture thinking into mainstream society, and quick, then there's really little point anyone being a permaculturist. As you've noted, to supply much of your own needs from your own land is a mammoth task that required much good design, determination, patient observance, and time. If you were surrounded in people all trying to do the same, all with a sense of urgency, then cooperation would blossom and you'd find you're not swimming against the current any more.

The good news is people are starting to wake up.

Your comments alone could easily be reworked into a good introspective, pondering post about your thoughts on the need to take this more seriously. I hope you'll take these comments and work it into a post for the main blog. It's all good stuff to inspire people.