View Full Version : katrina.rita, climate change + petrol prices
25-09-2005, 09:52 PM
since several days the same in the news:
first the hurricans, second hurricans have to deal with climate change. Third: that the high petrol price is a serious problem.
Are they mad? No discussion in politic that we should use much less petrol and how we can reduce the consumption dramtically?
26-09-2005, 08:26 AM
the average wanker just isnt interested in reducing fuel use :cry:
just the other night an old friend of phils was bragging about how he was going to buy a V8 :evil:
and judging from the political boards I frequent the average american refuses to believe global warming is the cause of these bigger hurricanes
I certainly think they are wasting money rebuilding New Orleans :roll:
and BTW another thing that stinks is that americans are whinging because fuel may get to $3 a gallon ! while we pay twice that :evil: if they had to pay the same then maybe they would curb their use
26-09-2005, 08:56 AM
we pay appr. 2.2 $ a liter...and cars are much smaller.
Here in Brisbane I can see many huge 4WD cars, shurely they are dirven on normaL roads in a metropolitan area and mothers are using them to transport their 3-years child to kindi.
26-09-2005, 11:58 AM
I'm so over the media blaming this and blaming that. The fact remains that its through cheap energy, via oil, that our society has grown to its present size. Also the way we run our day to day lives. It amazes me at how blind society can be and how quick people are to blame someone for there own problems. THE OIL WILL RUN OUT ONE DAY!! There is alot of debate that peak oil has already occured. The problems that this will involve hasn't been brought to light in mainstream media. Although it does seem to creeping to the surface. Most of our city friends think we are little crazy to wantt to move back to the country. The idea doesn't even enter there minds.
Please have a read of this site
You probably think I'm a doomer and maybe I am. But wether it happens in the next 5 years or 50 years, it will happen. IE we will run out of oil.
26-09-2005, 01:43 PM
living in the contry - does it not mean depending on your car, driving long distances?
26-09-2005, 02:29 PM
City - First residence was is a town house on a main road with a yard not big enough to swing a cat in. 30min bus ride to work. Second residence on the outer city fringe. Average size house and block, 2 hour train ride to city for work.
Country- Have a house on an acre. 15min drive (soon to be motorcyle) to town and work.
I know which one I prefer. :D
26-09-2005, 03:35 PM
Hedwig, Frosty and Annisa,
Good evening to all of you.
Our farm got flattened in 2001 by Hurricane Irene. We lost about %50 of 13 years of agroforestry work, and it sucked :( .
I have been to Nawlins several times, and it is, or was, in some places, a beautiful City, so unlike other cities in the US in that it feels more like a Carribean port town than another American city, and the loss there was tragic, a loss of lives, the most horrific loss of all, mostly poor people who were not evacuated and who couldn't afford to evacuate themselves. Also a loss to property, a spilling of chemicals, and the destruction of beautiful architecture, and music and a living beautiful place, vibrant with life. This was predictable and avoidable, but the resources were not made available.
For a quarter of a billion dollars, the levy system in Nawlins could have been strengthened to a level where Hurricane Katrina would not have overwhelmed it, but this money was not made available because the imbeciles in the White House do not believe in gov't working for the people, believe that the free enterprise system will somehow manage to care for everyone. Now the bill for cleaning up Nawlins is going to be over 100 billion dollars. Thats USD.25 worth of prevention for every USD100 of "cure", which doesn't cover the loss of life, which is not coverable.
I think the problem has been that fuel cost has been artificially cheap in the US, and as a result noone really values what petroleum is.
The US is like Australia in some ways, especially geographically. Unlike Europe, distances between cities in US and Australia can be enormous, and the way the US keep its economy moving is by keeping cheap fuel.
This "cheapness" covers many other factors in a blanket that hides their costs, which, if considered, raise the TRUE cost of petroleum (unjustified aggression and expansionist wars in the Middle East justified on the spurious allegation of WMDs, a "war on terror" when the terror is being sponsored by the Saudis using oil revenue, acid rain, global warming, increased hurricanes, melting of glaciers, etc) to a level where the worldwide use of a diminishing resource is much more costly than the cost of fuel, no matter if the fuel were rasied to USD9 a gallon, or USD20 a gallon, which, eventually it will get to.
Most people in America know that global warming is causing weather pattern changes, and only a very stupid idealogically committed bunch of idiots will say anything that contradicts that. Anytime you hear someone say something like "We need more studies on that", you are looking at an idiot and a hypocrite, because noone who has a brain would say something stupid like that.
Unfortunately, these idiots are extremely vocal, to such a degree that it would look like the majority of Americans think like this. This is not so, and most Americans understand and accept that global warming is real and that these harder and more frequent hurricanes are a result of warmer ocean tmperatures.
There are people who are talking about reducing fuel consumption, through ussing biodiesel, through electric cars, through fuel cells, through more efficient cars, including hybrids, etc, but the problem is that the system is set up by these imbeciles in the White House to reward stupid behaviour:
In the US, buying a Hummer, the stupidest vehicle any idiot could ever own, its NOT going off road, it gets 5 mpg, will gets you a USD100,000 tax break!
Anissa, you are so right, you are not a doomer, you are a realist. And the problem is not JUST that we will have to ride bikes everywhere, but that food production is imperiled by fuel shortages because so much of our food comes through petroleum. Peak oil should be making anyone thinking about food security very afraid bacause not only the food delivery systems are running on oil, but the whoe production model is greasy with petroleum, too.
Hedwig, the short answer to your question is "no". Living in the country may mean using YOUR car more, but living on a farm and producing a significant percentage of your food means your fuel use is less than the groovy guy who rides his bike everywhere in the city.
In the city you have other people driving for you. You have the water and sanitation people driving around, taking care of your water and sanitation needs. You have grid power, which is running on oil. In the city you don't have to drive as far to get to the super market, or, maybe you can even ride your bike there, but that food at the supermarket is not produced in the city, it came from somewhere, and it didn't sail into town. Petroleum got it there, in its production AND its transportation.
I have posted before on this, but most store bought food itself is produced using a model that is heavily dependent on petroleum. There is the fertilizer, made with fossil fuels, the pesticides, also made from petroleum, the combines to raise the grain, running on petroleum, the lights inside the factory farm where the animals are raised, run on electricity from far away. The animals are fed on the grains raised in the fields with the petrofertilizer, petrochemicals and using petroleumm consuming machinery.
Then all of this is transported into the city, with petroleum, where the virtuous bike rider who hasn't been in a car for twelve years, can go buy it and take it home to eat, in his house plugged into the grid, which runs on fossil fuel.
I would postulate that the average country living permie farmer who drives to town once a week, or twice a month, or even twice a week, his or her personal direct and indirect consumption of petroleum is less than the virtuous bike rider if the farmer is growing a significant percentage of her food.
If someone is raising their own food, they sidestep a significant amout of petroleum use on their behalf, even if they drive more miles per week or month than the bike riding guy in the city.
If you really want to reduce petroleum use, only buy organic locally produced meat as a first start, or better yet, raise it yourself. Meat is a very poor exchange for diminishing fuel supplies.
That is why every calorie that is produced locally using organic and permacultural techniques is worth hundreds of calries of avoided petroleum use. That is why everyone with a back yard should fill it with as much food producing as possible, which is.... (come on out guys...) the reason (hurry up, I'm about to say it...) why I think... (front and center!) that the...(ready?) most amazing thing I have seen this year is the (okay, now!) aquaponics system :wav: , which is so valuable for its calories per square meter brilliance (okay, emoticons, thanks for coming out... see ya next time). It is excellent design like this that is "a" solution. That is why every single bit of food produced in a local system is a huge victory for the planet, that is why every effort towards local food production is applaudable.
Sorry, got on a rant, again... dang, I'm always doin' that... :shock:
26-09-2005, 03:58 PM
27-09-2005, 03:05 PM
right, if you produce your own food and do not drive to work every day 50 km or more you are shurely more fuel -efficient. If niot, it is more efficient transporting your potatoes, fruits, milk, etc. in a big van than transporting one person hundreds of kilometres to work and back every week. ( I admit that the eco-balance would be difficult to make).
When I saw the pictures of Katrina and the reaktion of Bush I thought myself: how many weeks will this president remain president of the United states?
Especially the poor words forthe victims, and how fluent it came out when he talked about the economic damage.
I never meet americans which are pro-Bush, so what does he do to remain in power??
27-09-2005, 04:00 PM
At a guess Id say that the dumber the Population the longer it takes to remove te leader.even the bad leaders of this world last ages just ask stalin or hitlerthey were a billion times worse than howard not that for one nanomilli second im sticking up for howard.So seeings we had hiom sine 96 id say that may give an idea on how us dumb and dumbers are going....I think too many are sinle minded in life now,..Eg %%%%%% the liberals ideas on petrol ices so vote on that item only when after time ya forget the prices we still forget the illegal invasion of afghanizan and irac..yet people beleif this %%%%%%% moran come his sad hat look when he taks about poor buisnesses needing more profits.or workers never getting ,holidays or sickies any more $$$$##^%&*(% what the hells this country comming too.
Ill tell you wha, enjoy calling howard, bush, and blair a mob of W#!$^%$ because in a short time, well all get arrested for saying this, arrested for thinking it. arrested for just being!!!!!!!!! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Its not the leaders its the people ho vote for them,Those countries that even allow a democracy to exsist. Think of China think of aust just a differnt language and 5%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% were gunna sell them uranium.
i bet therell love our,"freshly harvested by our piss poor waged ,no holiday taking no sickie taking peasant..Mcyellow cake all on a sesame bun".if you can say this properly at any parliament near you thell give you a fortnite free accomadation travel expences holiday at Baxter detention centre.....jut SMS your local Pollie ,copper or local mp..
or call in and chat with your local ATM
Actually i tink little johny should be made a saint ..Just Imagine it ,all our food,clothing,white goods,etc etc etc is gunna end up comming from either
america or china...Good the farm land wont have anything to grow. no markets. no overseas customers.. great.............Then we can close all the non working farms clear every fence and turn them into Eco Villages
The Permies take over the world We corner the market feeding the starving millions in aussie an live happily ever after.....Aperson..
Long live Emperor Bill (chris do me some emoticons :( :( )
Thats enough for this subject for today..
Richard on Maui
27-09-2005, 05:57 PM
Hey, lots of those groovy guys riding around cities do grow (a lot of) their own food, you know. I know, because I used to be one :razz: ! Go city farms! Go community gardens! Go the vegie garden in the front yard!
I can't wait for the oil to run out. We can start mulching over all the tarmac. Just think of how much space we devote to roads and car parks! So much potential for food.
27-09-2005, 10:02 PM
my two bobs worth on this subject; maybe the US could spend the proposed 200 billion dollars to put a man (or woman) on mars, on a renewable non polluting energy resource. Many scientists now believe global warming is the cause of more intense cyclones, and wasn't it the US who wouldn't sign the Kyoto agreement? Sort of came back to bite them on the bum, didn't it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
27-09-2005, 10:53 PM
Hey psssst, hey bushy. Better change your nik name before
one of us decides to plant you, you could be George W Bushy
28-09-2005, 02:28 AM
Unfortunately, they are stuck with that imbecile for the balance of his term. There is no such thing as a vote of no confidence in the US, and short of impeachment, which is unlikely (stupidity and incompetenece while in the White House are, sadly, not indictable offences), he will remain in office to finish his term. This is even with a %37 approval rating that is plummeting in the wake of his handling of Hurricane Katrinsa, and as the ill conceived and unjustified invasion of Iraq continues to turn sour.
Richard, I am fully behind what you said about urban agriculture. I think urban agriculture is wonderful. A big part of why I think Joels amazing aquaponics system :wav: is such a marvelous working system is that it can be done in such a limited amount of space. Backyards, front yards, patios, roof tops, etc could all be ustiilized for these systems.....
Having said that, urban ag is much harder to do than homesteading, much more difficult to manage in a way that covers a signifcant percentage of the food supply. Most city dwellers are utterly dependent on petroleum based food, even if they offset a percentage of their food needs by keeping a few tomatoes, or whatever, and a city based life is quite likely to be more energy consumptive than a rural life (especially if the rural homestead is solar powered, or if so much food is produced on farm that trips to town are few). This is not to say urban ag can't work, but I think it is mostly offsetting rural ag food supplies shipped into the city.
Also, I am not trying to diminish the importance of urban ag, because each calorie produced in the city is hundreds of calries of avoided petroleum usage. Additionally the educational benefits for city folx are great with urban ag.
My wife and I are lucky in that we have a large piece of land, where we have many tree crops, and produce about %80 of the food we eat. We could live off our farm, completely, if we needed to, but our palate is more complicated, and we both like making and eating bread (we don't grow wheat...), and we like having milk in our tea.. (don't have goats, yet.... oops, digressing again :oops: ) but we do have plenty of space to play around with, trying things that may or may not work.... When it doesn't, not a big loss for us, we can leave our careless plant guilds with poor spacing for ever, we'll just plant somewhere else at the periphery.... However, for a city dweller, space use has to be carefully thought out for the maximum sustainable yield per square meter. Whuich brings us back to Jeols wonderful system.
I think in terms of avoided petroleum use, sustainable production on a per meter basis, and suitability to an urban (or suburban) environment we would all be hard pressed to find a solution as functional and elegant as Joels aquaponics system :wav: .
Anyway, got to run, bo buy lumner. Hope all'o'y'all in Oz is sleeping well!
03-10-2005, 08:40 PM
Geez Tezza, you sure know how to hurt a bloke!!!!!!!
let me strss, I'm no relation of that meglomaniac trying to control the whole world! Just an unfortunate choice of surname' sorry.
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