Hippie communes - was Permaculture the missing element?

[cassio]

I've always been fascinated by stories about the hippie communes of the 60's, and puzzled about why they didn't thrive. Always sounded to me like such a great idea, just like a dream, but why did it die, and so fast? Lack of commitment? lack of knowledge, about how to do things sustainably? What if it were now, with a bunch of PDC holders in it, would it be different? Could we have sustainable, long-living hippie communes, with permaculture?

[gardenlen]

g'day cassio,

i'll put my head into the lions mouth here, but to me what crueled it and still has a flow on effect on pc now, as many see it as belonging to that hippy era, what crueled it was low community standards, morals, if you like it was like the love children of the 60's all over again living a life of those excesses while on social security, and smoking the lawn insead of cutting it for mulch.

len

[Adam]

g'day cassio,

i'll put my head into the lions mouth here, but to me what crueled it and still has a flow on effect on pc now, as many see it as belonging to that hippy era, what crueled it was low community standards, morals, if you like it was like the love children of the 60's all over again living a life of those excesses while on social security, and smoking the lawn insead of cutting it for mulch.

len

I share gardenlen's somewhat critical stance on the hippy communes. Building a sustainable community takes hard work, dedication, organization, responsibility, skills, and a good sense of finances. I'm sure a minority of the hippies of the 60s really did have those qualities (or more likely, learned them along the way after some initial difficulties), which would explain why a few of the communes ended up surviving. But most of the hippies did not have those qualities, and instead thought that living on a commune would be a great chance to get drunk, party, play instruments, dance, and get high all the time -- oh and plant a few seeds here and there. I agree that the intentional community and ecovillage movement has really been harmed quite a bit by the mental association people have with the hippy communes.

Judging by the PDC I took, there are still plenty of modern-day hippies who are interested in permaculture. Although I personally am turned off by new age bullshit that hippies tend to espouse (cough cough, biodynamics), individual hippies can definitely make meaningful contributions to permaculture communities, but they definitely need to be balanced out by more practical, logic-driven people.

[gardenlen]

agree adam,

critical yes because we now get that negative view from the broader community due to that nimbin failure, the criticism is objective, saw a tv segment about a decade + ago they spoke to old nimbin people the ones who had the dream(then in their 50's now in tehir 60's), they are also dissilusioned and dissapointed as the moral failure of the idea still burgeons but now the lay on the lawn and use other, plus crime accompanies. go to city farms lots of fringe looking dwellers around wearing funny beenies and hair styles.

it is and has been at a stage where maybe the word pemaculture needs to be changed to something new, and yes as you say lots of young turk's in the forums now, so the forum has lost that better culture to some degree, lost the feel. and around the traps all pc forums and groups are suffering from a lack of interest in general. too much emphasis on having to spend money to be qualified to do permaculture, not what bill introduced on tv oh about 20 to 30 years ago, when he threw a mattress on the ground cut a hole in it planted a banana and mulched over it around the banana.

he was talking about mind set.

len

[ecodharmamark]

I've always been fascinated by stories about the hippie communes of the 60's, and puzzled about why they didn't thrive. Always sounded to me like such a great idea, just like a dream, but why did it die, and so fast? Lack of commitment? lack of knowledge, about how to do things sustainably? What if it were now, with a bunch of PDC holders in it, would it be different? Could we have sustainable, long-living hippie communes, with permaculture?

G'day cassio

Interesting topic, and one that relates very closely to my field of research.

The Oxford English Dictionary defines a 'hippie' (syn. 'hippy') as a "...hipster; a person, usually exotically dressed, who is, or is taken to be, given to the use of hallucinogenic drugs; a beatnik", and a 'commune' (in this context) as a "...group that practises communal living; a small community whose members share common interests, work, and income, and typically own property collectively".

Many of the original 'hippie communes' of the 60s did indeed collapse, but not all. A few continue to 'thrive' today, albeit most now operate a little (or a lot) differently to what they did back then. But before you might care to take a closer look at those which have survived (many have websites), perhaps it would be wise to pay respect to those who were there during the heyday of the hippie era...

In 1972, Richard Fairfield, a young Christian minister-turned-hippie, published the brilliant book: Communes USA - A personal tour. Within the pages of the well-worn copy I possess, exists a real treasure - a brief glimpse of what it must have been like living within various 'hippie communes' in the USA at the height of the era. Early in Communes USA, Fairfield gives readers a message that still rings true today: "...communes defy definition because they are constantly changing and growing" (p. 2). But try to classify them he did, and in doing so he roughly grouped those he visited into six differing types: "...religious, ideological, hip, group marriage, service, and youth" (ibid). Of the third type from Fairfield's list, the 'hip', this is what he had to say (p. 164):

Hip communes, and hip people in general, have a great affinity for one another. The manner of speech, dress, and long-hair, immediately communicate between strangers when they meet, a sense of brotherhood and belonging, which continues until proven otherwise through experience (as in the case of a rip-off artist or a narc (narcotics agent) dressed in hippie clothing). Thus, all hip communes, however their differences in philosophy and practice, share a special warmth and comradery with one another.

Immediately following the above, Fairfield goes on to describe how the 'hip' communes were changing, and perhaps gives us the first understanding of when the great communal hippie period ended, and at the same time an idea of when the new era in the ever-evolving world of intentional community began (ibid):

Hip communes have gone through a great many changes during the past five years. Anyone who has followed their development can only conclude that these changes have been for the better [the ex-minister's puritanical moral compass rearing its ugly head, perhaps?]. There is a sense of reality and joy in these communes today which is not described by the stories which follow [Fairfield writes about eleven rural 'hip' communes in total] because even a few months can make a lot of difference in the evolution of the commune. [One of the communards that Fairfield interview's] description of the recent developments at [one of the communes that fairfield visited] provides an excellent example of favourable development, despite continued harassment from outside authorities [namely: municipal officers concerned with 'health issues', and police concerned with 'drug issues']...

And on he (Fairfield) goes, writing about his experiences, and the experiences of those that were there. At around the same time (1973), Herb Seal was publishing Alternative Life Styles - A study of communes, intentional communities, group marriages and non-nuclear families. Seal is described as one who was "Orphaned as an infant and raised by two Irish ladies he left school at 15 and became an itinerant evangelist" (back cover). Was Seal yet another individual escaping from 'organised religion' and seeking an 'alternative life style'? Perhaps my future research will reveal all. But for the moment, and for the purpose of our current discussion, Seal has provided us with an extensive list of what the "Dysfunctions" within a 1960-70s commune were said to be, and in doing so may go some way toward answering your question, cassio (p. 86-7):

1. There is disorganization due to lack of planning.
2. Inadequate financial resources keep the group on the edge of poverty.
3. Personal privacy is sacrificed to the needs of the group.
4. Too many outside commitments preclude time for internal commitments.
5. So many personality types make group living tedious.
6. The group may not meet one's expectations.
7. Shit jobs seem a whole lot bigger when they are being done for a large number of people.
8. Feelings get hurt by candid frankness of others.
9. Unless the group develops cohesiveness its longevity and solidarity are threatened. Sex becomes a major issue.
10. All the hang-ups individuals had while living at home, or alone, or with a mate, are carried into [communes].
11. Personal property is likely to be used or abused by others.
12. There is idealization without corresponding reality.

So, cassio, perhaps the above gives you some understanding of why many of the communes failed. Seal also lists the (good) "Functions of Cooperative Living", with most of them countering the above, but I will leave the recounting of them for another time, and perhaps another thread.

Cheerio, Markos.

[springtide]

100% EcoD - though i do think you could apply permaculture principles to people rather than plants - companion planting, stacking of plants (people with responsibilities), etc - but plants don't get tired or pissed of when things dont work out their way.

[cassio]

Thank you, Marko!

Although I feel more inclined to take the definition of hippie by my favorite online dictionary (thefreedictionary), as "A person who opposes and rejects many of the conventional standards and customs of society, especially one who advocates extreme liberalism in sociopolitical attitudes and lifestyles", the information brought by you surely provides a lot of understanding of the failure of the communes. And, considering that the application of permaculture principles could fix only the first and maybe second of the "disfunctions" listed, well, apparently that wouldn't be enough...=(

Cheerio,
Cassio.

[ecodharmamark]

Delving deep into the (Internet) archives, and into the literature I have on hand, one is rewarded with a plethora of information pertaining to the eleven 'Hip Communes of Rural America' mentioned in Fairfield's 1972 work, and in doing so we are given a unique insight into life within 'hippiedom'. Here's an example from the first four:

The Lower Farm (Placitas, New Mexico):

08-14-2006, 04:27 AM

'Spencer-from-Tawapa' writes:

I started out at the Lower Farm in Placitas and eventually most of us went down the valley to a place we called Tawapa, and a lot of our people went to places like Long Lohn's Valley, Stone Mountain (near Lindreth), and to a place up the Mountain from Holman in Mora County, which we called "La Sierra", but I think the local name for it was actually "La Cuesta". Most of us had "fake names", and mine was Spencer, and I was pretty well known, I am quite sure. I would love to meet some folks who were on the commune scene and part of the world of the "Placitas Diaspora Hippies", you might call them...

...because we had an unbelievable number of people go through there, and frankly, we thought of ourselves as the navel of hippiedom and everyone else as dillettantes and wannabes. That was the typical communard attitude, you know, and we thought of ourselves as some sort of elite, because we really did try very hard to drop out of society and thoroughly as we could and live off the land as much as we were able to. We would plow our fild with a horse, using this tack that the Indians gave to us, and we would plant Blue Corn that we originally got from Acoma Pueblo in 1968 (I was there when they did that). It was pretty cool. I will never let that memory or feeling go away as long as I live, even if I am the last person on Earth who remebers and who feels it.

Source: The Hip Forums - Anyone from the New Mexico communes? (http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?p=6177952)

Hippies and Hassles in the Taos Area (extracted from Fairfield, pp. 185-6):

Although they do so for different reasons, many people from both the straight and the hip worlds descend on the Taos [New Mexico] area each year.

...in 1970, we found the area swarming with hip people. Some of them were seeking out or setting up communes; many of the others, in pairs and small groups, were simply building homes for themselves wherever they could.

Most of the people were too poor to afford good dope (marijuana, as well as acid [LSD] and other psychedelics0 and too wise to get into speed [amphetamines]... But such distinctions were lost on the arbitors of morality and upholders of law among the citizenry. Consequently, it didn't take too many young hoods, alias transient hippies, alias teenyboopers, alias kick-kids (never the permanent residents) who were intent on wrecking their minds and bodies in order to give all hip people a bad name. But then, dumb brute prejudice and repressed hostility never look beyond the hazy image of casual clothes, long hair, and whiskers...

New Buffalo (Taos, New Mexico)

In the morning Chuck and I took out the garbage to the public dump. We couldn’t get the truck out over a hill, so we hitched home, got all kinds of chains and bailing wire to improvise a set of chains. Max and Neil came to help, got the truck almost out but broke a brake line; the truck shot back down the hill. We then went to town and back to Buffalo and got a thing to repair a hole and make a splice. We found another hole, went to Questa and bought a new line. As the sun set, Chuck and I put in the new line, bled the brakes, put on the new gigantic chain that Max scored and drove home. Had some rabbit that Chuck shot, lemon meringue pie that Susie baked and smoked some homegrown. Moon is out, shining lots of light these nights on the white landscape. Do we know how to have fun or what?

Source: Humorous excerpts from New Buffalo Journals (http://www.arthurkopecky.com/humor.html)

Drop City (Colorado)

Drop City was a community that formed in the hills of southern Colorado in the late 1960's, which bloomed and disintegrated by the early 70's. Though in many ways unique, it is perhaps representative of many of the communes and "intentional communities" of the time. In 1965, the four original settlers of Drop City, art students and writers from the Universities of Kansas and Colorado, moved to a hillside near Trinidad, in the south eastern corner of Colorado. They had no intention of founding a large community, they just wanted to live cheaply and and have time to pursue their art. People came to stay and work to build the community, and the construction projects kept the community focused. Inspired by the architectural principles of Buckminister Fuller, they constructed domes to house themselves, using a system of triangular panels made from the sheet metal of automobile roofs. In 1967 the group, now consisting of 10 core people, won the $1,000 Cymaxion award for their constructions. "Drop City became a decompression chamber for city freaks".

Source: Parole - Drop City (http://parole.aporee.org/work/print.php?words_id=776)

[ecodharmamark]

Thank you, Marko!

Although I feel more inclined to take the definition of hippie by my favorite online dictionary (thefreedictionary), as "A person who opposes and rejects many of the conventional standards and customs of society, especially one who advocates extreme liberalism in sociopolitical attitudes and lifestyles", the information brought by you surely provides a lot of understanding of the failure of the communes. And, considering that the application of permaculture principles could fix only the first and maybe second of the "disfunctions" listed, well, apparently that wouldn't be enough...=(

Cheerio,
Cassio.

Ahh, but cassio, what defines permaculture? I firmly believe that permaculture (as defined by Holmgren (http://www.holmgren.com.au/html/About/aboutpermaculture.html)) when applied in its entirety (i.e - all of the 12 Principles), will see communal life survive, indeed thrive.

If we only ever see permaculture as a way of organising our garden (rather than as a way of organising our entire existence) then yes, permaculture (in this sense) will never survive.

For every one of the 12 'dysfunctions' as listed by Seal way back in 1972, holistically applied permaculture can (and will, given the chance) provide a solution.

Permaculture begins in the mind of the individual, and flowers through the expression of the individual, through the the life of the commune. Permaculture IS a communal entity. To go it alone, is to set one's self up for failure.

Cheerio, Markos.

[ecodharmamark]

A philosophical Mollison on "The Permaculture Community":

The global village community has been developing over the last decade. It is the most remarkable revolution in thought, values, and technology that has yet evolved...

...I see no other solution (political, economic) to the problems of mankind than the formation of small responsible communities involved in permaculture and and appropriate technology. I believe that the days of centralised power are numbered, and that re-tribalisation of society is an inevitable, if sometimes painful, process.

Unwilling as some of us are to act, we must find ways to do so for our own survival. Not all of us are, or need to be, farmers and gardeners. However, everyone has skills and strengths to offer and may form ecological parties or local action groups to change the politics of our local and state governments...

I believe we must change our philosophy before anything else changes. Change the philosophy of competition (which now pervades our educational system) to that of cooperation in free associations...

To become a complete person, we must travel many paths, and to truly own anything we must first of all give it away... Only those who share their multiple and varied skills, true friendships, and a sense of community and knowledge of earth know they are safe wherever they go...

...There is no other path for us than that of cooperative productivity and community responsibility. Take that path, and it will change your life in ways you cannot yet imagine.

Source: Mollison (1991) Introduction to Permaculture (http://www.tagari.com/store/12#item58). Tyalgum, Australia: Tagari, pp. 169-170 (my emphasis in bold).

[sun burn]

At a guess I'd say it would be personality issues. People are on the whole immature, selfish and lazy unless they have a leader to follow who can bring some discipline and maturity into the mix. There may be a better way of saying this. I mean lots of people spout wholesome sounding words and ideas but saying it is a lot easier than doing it when you have competing ideas and egos in play. On the other hand, i've not spent any time on a commune but i have spent lots of time in organised community groups where there was a hierarchical structure and organisation that kept it in order and enduring. Perhaps the best working examples would be the kibbutzim but even then there were (and probably still are) problems. You should probably take a closer look at kibbutzim if you want to consider why the hippie communes ultimately failed.

[gardenlen]

g'day sunburn,

yes people need to have ethics, certain ethics for any society to work, these ethics come from deeper within you either have them or you don't. they govern how you work, your morals and demeaner.

len

[ecodharmamark]

...these ethics come from deeper within you either have them or you don't...

G'day Len

It's an age old debate, 'nature versus nurture'. I come down squarely on the side of nurture. I believe that we are all born equal - a 'clean slate', if you like. I also believe that we are social beings, and as such it is through the socialisation process that we hone our moral compass.

How do you believe it is that we come to have 'ethics'?

Cheerio, Markos.