Very Edible Gardens PTY LTD

[Nathan Edwards]

Hey all, my post count is down coz for the last year and a half I have been buried beginning a new business with partners Adam Grubb, Dan Palmer, Paul Fogarty and myself - Nathan Edwards. Our website is www.veryediblegardens.com.au (http://www.veryediblegardens.com.au) and we are giving this old permaculture thing another red-hot ripper go. After all of us individually running our separate permaculture design consultancies we decided some time ago that we needed to start simple with the general public and made vegie gardens the key focus. The good news is people are starting to get it and we are in fact getting some traction this time. So wish us luck in being a part of making this country a great place to eat home grown food. I for one am over paying my bills by doing menial work for other people who invariably have less consideration for the ecological impacts of there business activities.

[janahn]

congradulations on your venture.

I did notice on your web site reference to growing legumes as companions. most value will be gained after they are ploughed back in. as juveniles they will compete for nitrogen.

LM

[buff orpington]

actually it is better to cut he legumes at the stage of flowering when the root nodules are at the most optimum size, the residuals can the be used as mulch

[janahn]

what are your creditionals in this field Buff. ???

you seem to miss the point!!!!!!!!!!!

Leo

[gbell]

Wow, very impressive website. Tons of info, but not too cluttered. Nice design.

My little contribution (along with best wishes!):

On http://www.veryediblegardens.com/servic ... ure-design (http://www.veryediblegardens.com/services/permaculture-design) at the bottom, you link to an empty contact page...
http://www.veryediblegardens.com/component/contact/1

Oh, and one more thing. On your composting worms page:
http://www.veryediblegardens.com/produc ... egory_id=9 (http://www.veryediblegardens.com/products?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=57&category_id=9)

"Worms like most fruit and vegetable scraps but as they do not have teeth the scraps should be cut into small pieces."

Totally untrue :) Well, correct, they don't have teeth, but the normal rotting process completely softens the food up for the worms. Anybody reading the above advice would probably not go for worms because of all that extra work.

Best wishes!

[purplepear]

I've been informed - reasonably reliably- gbell, that worms eat bacteria that break down the food. Have you heard this or has anyone?

[purplepear]

Great looking site guys - the best of luck for a bright future.
intent-observation-intuition

[Fernando Pessoa]

Although I dont care for Buff too much as a person,I am willing to defend him as a permacultralist.I have met many but few have his knowledge ,stand aside grasshopper he is correct on the nitrogen.Plowing in only seeks to disturb the soil food web.
Best wishes
Fernando
http://www.agroforestry.net/pubs/NFTs.html

[Fernando Pessoa]

yes purple you are completely correct.I might also surprise you by saying that the leechate or worm juice most collect will not do you much good.You need to be using casts in water to benifit benificials in you soil food web.
www.wormtec.com.au (http://www.wormtec.com.au) I believe has the goods on all things relating to the worm ,dam fine compost teas and goodies as well.
Best wishes Fernando

[purplepear]

Thanks for the "heads up" Fernando on the topic of worms eating bacteria. We use our worm wee on the compost. The extra breakdown turns it into good stuff. I guess we shouldn't high jack this topic too much.

Well done guys on a worthwhile venture in applied permaculture. I did it some years ago with some success but the area was not ready for it then. It is important that we have working models out there for people to use as guides. What you are doing will develop those models.
intent-observation-intuition

[eco4560]

Don't feel you need to stop - some of us are happy to watch the dialog without contributing!

Says she who has been diligently puree-ing her worm food and is still getting used to the idea that they'll eat it just the same....

[Fernando Pessoa]

I thinks that you should continue to be a good mother to your bacteria,they appreciate fast de composition,it stops the food rotting.If its smaller it breaking down faster as you have created more surface area most meats and vegtables once pureed are far more bacterial and active ask any hamburger chef....
best wishes
Fernando

[gbell]

The stuff rots, and rots from bacterial and fungal action. Not sure what you're on about Fernando.

In a typical household worm bin, you don't really care how fast things rot. They do rot, and the worms are there to turn that into compost. Why spend time and electricity doing something bizarre and unnecessary like puréeing your kitchen scraps? Let Nature do the work... I've been successfully vermicomposting for 17 years. Trust me, the bacteria and fungi will turn your scraps into purée all by themselves :)

[Fernando Pessoa]

Rotting is different to bacterial breakdown,when you expose anythings surface area you allow it to become more bacterial.Slow rotting is a waste a god dam crying shame.Take a steak for example now that is far less bacterial after 4 hours in the sun than the same steak made into a hamburger.Blitzing the worm food is a must anything else is just pointless.Nothing worse than seeing a bin full of fungal food because the owner is to lazy to blitz it.Fungi is not bacteria.People who treat there worms in such a manner should be reported to the rspcw and have their worms taken away from them. :twisted: :butthead: :axe: :finga: Heathens

[Fernando Pessoa]

Oh and just because you are on a well beaten path dosn't make it the right one.I have been living along time and I still aint got it right live and learn .............

[gbell]

What does increasing the bacteria by 'blitzing' gain you?

[Fernando Pessoa]

More bacteria =more food for worms =more growth=more return for worm weight and casts in a faster time frame!

[gbell]

Ain't going to make a bit of difference on a household scale.

[Fernando Pessoa]

Obtain a yield,maximising yield is most important.Micro is macro if you increase the worms you can make a few bucks or just return the surplus.Try it as an experiment one with blitz food one with whole food.If I am wrong and there is no noticeable increase in the weight of worms that you have in each control,and no noticable increase in the rate of food you can put into the system after 6 months, I will send you a five dollar scratchie.
best wishes Fernando

[gbell]

5 months of blitzing food scraps for a $5 ticket! No thanks :)

Of course, learning something new is invaluable, but there's no logic in your claim, so I'm too doubtful to even bother trying it.

My worms are huge and fat because there's tonnes of soft food for them to eat - food soft from rotting. Think of it as an assembly line, with food scraps going in the front, and bacteria and fungi softened food at the end of the line. The worms eat from the end of the line. Your blitzing technique shortens the assembly line, but doesn't increase the speed of the conveyer belt - same amount of food goes in, same amount gets turned into compost.... just a shorter line.

While we're quoting permaculture axioms, how about "work with nature" and "use appropriate technology appropriately" :)

[Fernando Pessoa]

You are wasting valuable finite imputs,of course this is your choice.My line of reasoning is perfectly logical in fact,it is considered to be best practice.It's up to you but please don't be bandying about misinformation based on personal observation, you only seek to misinform and make excuse for poor practice.If you wish to practice poor worm husbandry thats fine.As permacultralists we are obliged to return surplus that means waste as well as abundance if you want to rob the earth and yourself of a valuable resource again it's your choice.My analogy might be this,if you buy milk at the shop the change you get you can either put in your pocket or throw in the gutter,I think your a guy that throws it in the gutter....thats just my 2 cents though.
Best wishes Fernando :mrgreen:

[purplepear]

I think a compromise is in order guys. What say we practice chopping like "yan can cook" and take it as far as we individually like it - cause though I agree with Fernando about the size of the particles, I note that worms do just fine without our intervention. :wink: I would like to add that fresher food is always better. A day for the bacteria to build is good but remove unconsumed food after a day or so more.
kind regards
purplepear
intent-observation-intuition

[Fernando Pessoa]

I agree to disagree,none are so blind as those who won't see.What I think is funny is I remember when worms first hit the market fool proof they said.Well you show me foolproof and I will show you I am a talented fool.Apologies Gbell,If I am too much of a pedant.Best wishes to you my friend!and I have enjoyed the exchange tally ho I say lets disagree about something else ....To swale or not to swale Peter Andrews has a very interesting opinion in back to the brink.!!!!!!!! :lol:
Thankyou PP for your gentle hand of mediation. :oops:

[purplepear]

I guess it is the bro mantic in me Fernando 8)

[gbell]

I'm happy to drop it, though I think Fernando owes it to any future readers of this thread to explain exactly how someone who feeds whole scraps to a worm bin is wasting resources. The scraps soften in a few days, the worms eat them and they become compost. Same as blitzing them.

[pebble]

This is a bizarre conversation.

I can't keep up with the worms in my worm farm, so blending the food isn't really going to help is it?

Plus, I'd like to see an analysis of the water and electricity wasted in cleaning the blender ;-)

Seems like there are two different ways of doing things being offered here. I'm sure there's more than two in practice. And I'm sure my worm farm maintenance would be considered poor by some. But it works for me, so is that a problem?

[Fernando Pessoa]

Yes I will be drawn back in.....Once more rotting is a completely different process to bacterial break down.Anything wich is made smaller becomes more bacterial,faster.The surface area of foods that have been pulverised blitzed chopped will harbour more bacteria which is worm food.Here is a simple experiment take 100 grams of lettuce leaves and shred them,now take one hundred grams of un shredded lettuce leaves put them in your farm side by side,see which disappears first.One will become highly bacterial because all it's surface area is exposed,the other will rot.Again worms eat bacteria.If you want to let your food rot away the worms will only be getting a small portion of the input.Inputs are finite,in the big picture and we are all trying to make efficent use of resource as permacultralists.Or are we?And just like Forest Gump who is my intelectual model"thats all I gots to say about that.Once again if offence has been caused you have my apologies.
Your Humble Servant
:) Fernado Pessoa Filho

[gbell]

I've (very belatedly!) made a new thread for this conversation here (http://forums.permaculture.org.au/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12261) with some very interesting research.

[Fernando Pessoa]

Re: What exactly do earthworms eat?
by Fernando Pessoa » Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:47 pm

1.Fernando was saying earthworms eat bacteria so we should "blitz" food scraps in a blender, which increases the bacterial action in the food. Anything else "wastes" the food scraps since they break down before the worms can eat them.

Fernado never said this he is talking about red tiger worms or blue worms or other commonly used worms in home composting systems that rely on food scraps breaking down through bacterial action.

Fernado is fully aware that earthworms are part of the soil food web and of course each a wide variety of things mycoryzal fungi ,protozoa,et all they are completely different to the household worm.

Only an absolute or an Idiot could think this,Again I never stated that the earthworm did anything......good grief ..... lets get to the next lot of crap shall we.

2.I've always heard they eat "decaying organic matter", so I thought I'd do a bit of research.(should have done more)

I can't find much that's definitive on this issue. One commercial site and one "blogger" state that they eat bacteria, but they don't say that bacteria is the worms' primary food source. Searching Google Scholar (to get academic and science sources) yielded:(here we go he reckons he has got something)

This at science direct

says:
There is experimental evidence that microorganisms provide food for (EARTHORMS). Bacteria are of minor importance in the diet, algae are of moderate importance; protozoa and fungi are major sources of nutrients.(what relevance to home composting??????????)Again you are talking about earthworms......wow I can't even believe you spent time on this)

Also, this: http://www.compost.bc.ca/learn/factshee ... cology.pdf

says:
Worms consume bacteria, fungi, protozoa, and organic matter.

This: http://cwmi.css.cornell.edu/chapter1.pdf

says:
Worms and some other invertebrates derive nutrition by digesting the microorganisms growing on
organic detritus, as well as the detritus itself.COMPOST DERITUS IS NOT FOUND IN YOUR WORM FARM UNLESS YOU HAVE AN AMAZING DIET ie you are eating compost and throwing what you cant finish in the worm farm........this is a joke.

2......REBUTAL............I agree with this this is basic soil food web stuff relating to EARThWORMS,again we are talking about home composting in a bucket with vegtable scraps using red and blue worms the MAIN SOURCE OF THE HOME WORM IS BACTERIA BECAUSE HE LIVES IN A CAGE,HE DOES NOT HAVE ACESS TO ANYTHING LIKE THE EARTHWORM AND IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ANYWAY>WHEN THE SOIL FOOD WEB TALKS ABOUT FUNGI THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT MYCORYZAL FUNGI<WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT FUNGI ITS FUNGUS AND A PATHOGEN NOT A BENIFICIAL FUNGI .

A bit of research doesn't seem to back your bold claims. Please forward your sources as I love learning new things!

From my research, I would conclude that the bacteria are not the worms' primary food source, but a part of it. Composting earthworms eat many microorganisms in the rotting plant material, as well as the rotting plant material itself. So letting stuff rot "whole" provides worms with plenty of food (with no waste) - in the form of the variety of microorganisms, and the organic matter itself. No need to make the food primarily bacterial.

There's no need to give up and "agree to disagree" when all we're trying to do is seek knowledge .

Your research is plainly rubbish as are your home composting methods, you have managed to make a fool of yourself now . I was more than happy to let it go gracefully.Your research is about eartworms it's basic knowledge.Really I am serious when I say you don't deserve worms because you don't know the difference between and eartworm and a home composting worm.Futher more you have completely misrepresented my argument so as to claim a victory on a forum.I suggest that you change your name now and slink off because any credibility you may have had you have lost with this bunkum you are serving up.
Please feel free to rebut this takes me two minutes and you the whole day on google lol learn your stuff buddy you are not with it.You take being wrong personally.Take it on as a chance to learn dont let your ego get in the way.What I am most disappointed in is that you say I hijacked this topic when it was purple pear that first corrected you.Then you mis represent my statements to prove a moot point again I was just going to let it go but really you are too much.
Fernado Fernando Pessoa

Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:58 pm
Private message

[gemjill]

G'day
Great looking website and great venture too; I think having different income streams like the book and product selling is a really good idea. Also as many links as you can (i didn't actually check those yet)
Hope it goes well, good luck
cheers

[Michaelangelica]

Great name
Good luck
You might start flogging your services in trendy ares of the cities!

[Michaelangelica]

Have we two threads on What eathworms eat?
I'm confused about what to move??

[bonsai]

site looks great :) best wishes!!!

on the other hand, I had no idea it was possible to get so worked up over composting methods. pretty foolish if you ask me.