Permaculture is a sub-culture of Horticulture

[Dalzieldrin]

One of the moderators of this forum has asked this question:

" Someone please correct me if i am wrong but is Permaculture not a sub-culture of Horticulture? "

I think this is incorrect, ie. permaculture is a broad philosophy that encompasses things like horticulture, but not the other way around.

so...which is it?

Now, for the purposes of the poll i've constructed the options directly from the quote - ie. I've stuck with the use of "sub-culture". Perhaps you don't like the term and think that another term would be more apt - this may then impinge on your vote because you're voting yes or no not on the issue itself but on a literal interpretation of 'sub-culture'. Could I ask you to insert your own term and then address the question that way, ie. is Perm. a sub-[insert your term] of Hort. or is it the other way around?


Have fun

[thepoolroom]

I don't get it - it seems patently obvious that permaculture is not a sub-culture of horticulture. Why the need for a poll?

Permaculture deals with animals, plants, water, energy, humans, economics, ethics, and lots more. Horticulture deals with growing plants.

It's like asking if "health and wellbeing" is a sub-culture of dentistry.

[9anda1f]

Given the definition of horticulture on wikipedia, I can't even say horticulture is a sub-culture completely within Permaculture, although some aspects of it are elements of Permaculture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horticulture


Horticulture is the industry and science of plant cultivation. Horticulturists work and conduct research in the disciplines of plant propagation and cultivation, crop production, plant breeding and genetic engineering, plant biochemistry, and plant physiology.

I'm pretty sure genetic engineering falls outside the ideals of Permaculture. I'm also fairly certain that the general term "horticulture" includes the applications of "chemicals" to accomplish the stated industrial goals.

:?

[Dalzieldrin]

I don't get it - it seems patently obvious that permaculture is not a sub-culture of horticulture. Why the need for a poll?

Permaculture deals with animals, plants, water, energy, humans, economics, ethics, and lots more. Horticulture deals with growing plants.

It's like asking if "health and wellbeing" is a sub-culture of dentistry.

indeed indeed indeed

it seems patently obvious to me, too. but it's always prudent to consider the possibility that one might be mistaken.

recall that the request was "please correct me if I'm wrong" - a poll might seem a grandiose way of setting the record straight, but at least the forum will have the record straight for future reference


would anyone like to offer an opposing view? an argument in favour of why Permaculture is a sub-group of Horticulture?

[milifestyle]

"...If you want a change, to get your hands dirty and try something new; gain a solid training in Permaculture Design and practices! This course was recently revised to provide even more extensive and solid training for those who want to work in horticulture, especially in the design and care of productive natural garden systems. Graduates may find employment in general horticulture, permaculture design, or natural gardening (eg. in garden/system design, nurseries, teaching, consulting, etc). An excellent starting point for an exciting career in permaculture or sustainable gardening, and the skills you will learn will be valuable for any area of Horticulture too..."

http://www.acs.edu.au/courses/Certifica ... e-144.aspx (http://www.acs.edu.au/courses/Certificate-In-Horticulture-Permaculture-144.aspx)

http://www.mysunshinecoast.com.au/event ... 0099,56692 (http://www.mysunshinecoast.com.au/events/events-display/certificate-one-in-horticulture-using-permaculture,40099,56692)

http://www.acsedu.co.uk/Courses/Permacu ... 2-195.aspx (http://www.acsedu.co.uk/Courses/Permaculture-and-Self-Sufficiency/CERTIFICATE-IN-HORTICULTURE-PERMACULTURE-VHT002-195.aspx)

http://www.warnborough.ac.uk/index.php? ... urseID=106 (http://www.warnborough.ac.uk/index.php?page=ViewCourse&CourseID=106)

http://www.thecareersguide.com/product.aspx?id=195

[Dalzieldrin]

"...If you want a change, to get your hands dirty and try something new; gain a solid training in Permaculture Design and practices! This course was recently revised to provide even more extensive and solid training for those who want to work in horticulture, especially in the design and care of productive natural garden systems. Graduates may find employment in general horticulture, permaculture design, or natural gardening (eg. in garden/system design, nurseries, teaching, consulting, etc). An excellent starting point for an exciting career in permaculture or sustainable gardening, and the skills you will learn will be valuable for any area of Horticulture too..."

http://www.acs.edu.au/courses/Certifica ... e-144.aspx (http://www.acs.edu.au/courses/Certificate-In-Horticulture-Permaculture-144.aspx)

http://www.mysunshinecoast.com.au/event ... 0099,56692 (http://www.mysunshinecoast.com.au/events/events-display/certificate-one-in-horticulture-using-permaculture,40099,56692)

http://www.acsedu.co.uk/Courses/Permacu ... 2-195.aspx (http://www.acsedu.co.uk/Courses/Permaculture-and-Self-Sufficiency/CERTIFICATE-IN-HORTICULTURE-PERMACULTURE-VHT002-195.aspx)

http://www.warnborough.ac.uk/index.php? ... urseID=106 (http://www.warnborough.ac.uk/index.php?page=ViewCourse&CourseID=106)

http://www.thecareersguide.com/product.aspx?id=195

thankyou for the contribution, i'm sure the courses on offer would be very edifying.

However, I don't see how this suffices as an answer, one way or the other, to the question at hand - would you care to elaborate?

[Dalzieldrin]

So far, one respondant has voted in the affirmative - ie. they think that Permaculture is a sub-group of Horticulture.

It would be instructive if we could hear the views of that voter - I invite you to present us with your argument for it being one way and not the other.



23 views and only 5 votes? Oh come on...I'm not going to bite you! 8)

[milifestyle]

Its an interesting debate.

It could also be said that Permaculture has links to Both Horticulture & Agriculture.

Courses are offered in Horticulture whith an emphasis on Permaculture, Likewise similar emphasis is placed on Landscaping, Turf, Parks ad Wildlife etc, with Horticulture being the main core unit of study.

On the other hand, Permaculture is also offered as a stand alone course with no mention of Horticulture.

The debate continues... :)

[Dalzieldrin]

Its an interesting debate.

It could also be said that Permaculture has links to Both Horticulture & Agriculture.

Courses are offered in Horticulture whith an emphasis on Permaculture, Likewise similar emphasis is placed on Landscaping, Turf, Parks ad Wildlife etc, with Horticulture being the main core unit of study.

On the other hand, Permaculture is also offered as a stand alone course with no mention of Horticulture.

The debate continues... :)


tell me if I've understood you correctly - because the horticulture course you attended offered a component on permaculture this is why you believe that permaculture is a sub-culture of horticulture?

[milifestyle]

The horticulture course i attended did not have a permaculture unit of study :wink:

Horticulture has many streams from Landsape design to Nursery management.

The overall design of a "sustainable human habitat" would likely include several cultural practices from Landscape design to Nursery management. As well as Agriculture.

[Grahame]

I have a bachelor of applied science in horticulture. I don't remember any mention of permaculture in the lectures but I heard something about it and organics around the uni. :D

In fairness though, I was quite preoccupied with drinking and partying and so forth, so I may have missed it. :wink:

You say potato, I say patarto.

[thepoolroom]

Nobody is saying horticulture is a sub-culture of permaculture, and nobody is saying there aren't links between the two. The question posed was specifically "is permaculture a sub-culture of horticulture", and I don't think the answer can be anything other than "no".

What part of horticulture deals with economics and local currencies? What part of horticulture deals with solar or wind energy generation?

[Dalzieldrin]

well said.

Since it was 'milifestyle' who first posed the question, and presumably cast the single affirmative vote, I was rather hoping we might get something of an elaboration of his position.

It could be that i've been overdoing it on the stupid pills but I'm finding it difficult to understand where he's coming from.

[milifestyle]

Nobody is saying horticulture is a sub-culture of permaculture, and nobody is saying there aren't links between the two. The question posed was specifically "is permaculture a sub-culture of horticulture", and I don't think the answer can be anything other than "no".

What part of horticulture deals with economics and local currencies? What part of horticulture deals with solar or wind energy generation?

Yes, totally true.

How much of a Permaculture system would be based around Sustainable Agriculture & Horticulture practices ?

The Wikipedia definition of Agriculture...


Agriculture refers to the production of food and goods through farming and forestry. Agriculture was the key development that led to the rise of civilization, with the husbandry of domesticated animals and plants (i.e. crops) creating food surpluses that enabled the development of more densely populated and stratified societies. The study of agriculture is known as agricultural science (the related practice of gardening is studied in horticulture).

Agriculture encompasses a wide variety of specialties and techniques, including ways to expand the lands suitable for plant raising, by digging water-channels and other forms of irrigation. Cultivation of crops on arable land and the pastoral herding of livestock on rangeland remain at the foundation of agriculture. In the past century there has been increasing concern to identify and quantify various forms of agriculture. In the developed world the range usually extends between sustainable agriculture (e.g. permaculture or organic agriculture) and intensive farming (e.g. industrial agriculture).


The Wikipedia definition of the Study of Horticulture...


Horticulture involves eight areas of study, which can be grouped into two broad sections - ornamentals and edibles:

- Arboriculture the study and selection, planting, care, and removal of individual trees, shrubs, vines, and other perennial woody plants.
- Floriculture (includes production and marketing of floral crops).
- Landscape horticulture (includes production, marketing and maintenance of landscape plants).
- Olericulture (includes production and marketing of vegetables).
- Pomology (includes production and marketing of fruits).
- Viticulture (includes production and marketing of grapes).
- Postharvest physiology (involves maintaining quality and preventing spoilage of horticultural crops).

Horticulturists can work in industry, government or educational institutions or private collections. They can be cropping systems engineers, wholesale or retail business managers, propagators and tissue culture specialists (fruits, vegetables, ornamentals, and turf), crop inspectors, crop production advisers, extension specialists, plant breeders, research scientists, and of course, teachers.

[Dalzieldrin]

Nobody is saying horticulture is a sub-culture of permaculture, and nobody is saying there aren't links between the two. The question posed was specifically "is permaculture a sub-culture of horticulture", and I don't think the answer can be anything other than "no".

What part of horticulture deals with economics and local currencies? What part of horticulture deals with solar or wind energy generation?

Yes, totally true.

[/quote]


so.......you're now agreeing with somebody who disagrees with your original statement. That is, you now accept that you were mistaken in asserting that Permaculture is a sub-group of Horticulture.

I'm glad we've got that settled

[milifestyle]

Nobody is saying horticulture is a sub-culture of permaculture, and nobody is saying there aren't links between the two. The question posed was specifically "is permaculture a sub-culture of horticulture", and I don't think the answer can be anything other than "no".

What part of horticulture deals with economics and local currencies? What part of horticulture deals with solar or wind energy generation?

Yes, totally true.





so.......you're now agreeing with somebody who disagrees with your original statement. That is, you now accept that you were mistaken in asserting that Permaculture is a sub-group of Horticulture.

I'm glad we've got that settled

You remind me of my wife... Your right even when your wrong :wink:

What is "Totally true" is the point that the sub-culture theory was posed as a question.

Since i didn't attempt to answer the second part of the original post, perhaps you would like to fill us in on...

What part of Horticulture deals with economics and local currencies ?

What part of horticulture deals with solar or wind energy generation ?

I would value your learned opinion!

[Dalzieldrin]

You remind me of my wife... Your right even when your wrong :wink:

What is "Totally true" is the point that the sub-culture theory was posed as a question.

Since i didn't attempt to answer the second part of the original post, perhaps you would like to fill us in on...

What part of Horticulture deals with economics and local currencies ?

What part of horticulture deals with solar or wind energy generation ?

I would value your learned opinion!


i) this is playing the player and not the ball. I wonder if there is one rule for the moderators, but another for the rest of us.


ii) you wrote "totally true". how else is a person to interpret what you wrote?

but no matter...you only meant 'partially true'...you were just agreeing that the question was...a question - thankyou for the clarification.


iii) You're right, it was indeed question, here it is again:

"Someone please correct me if i am wrong but is Permaculture not a sub-culture of Horticulture?"

and thepoolroom, in addition to his opening gambit of "patently absurd" gives his position very clearly in the text you quoted as "I don't think the answer can be anything other than "no" "


iv) You've been invited to explain why you think thepoolroom, myself and others are wrong but you have shown a distinct reluctance to post anything of substance that might allow the reader to understand your position.

no matter, the thread speaks for itself.

[milifestyle]

My open apologies if your felt i was playing the player and not the ball.

I try not to moderate open discussions where 2 people feel passionate about a subject and have different points of view.

As a moderator, I look out for Spam posts and offensive language.

[milifestyle]

iv) You've been invited to explain why you think thepoolroom, myself and others are wrong but you have shown a distinct reluctance to post anything of substance that might allow the reader to understand your position.

Apologies, i thought i posted this above...

How much of a Permaculture system would be based around Sustainable Agriculture & Horticulture practices ?

The Wikipedia definition of Agriculture...


Agriculture refers to the production of food and goods through farming and forestry. Agriculture was the key development that led to the rise of civilization, with the husbandry of domesticated animals and plants (i.e. crops) creating food surpluses that enabled the development of more densely populated and stratified societies. The study of agriculture is known as agricultural science (the related practice of gardening is studied in horticulture).

Agriculture encompasses a wide variety of specialties and techniques, including ways to expand the lands suitable for plant raising, by digging water-channels and other forms of irrigation. Cultivation of crops on arable land and the pastoral herding of livestock on rangeland remain at the foundation of agriculture. In the past century there has been increasing concern to identify and quantify various forms of agriculture. In the developed world the range usually extends between sustainable agriculture (e.g. permaculture or organic agriculture) and intensive farming (e.g. industrial agriculture).


The Wikipedia definition of the Study of Horticulture...


Horticulture involves eight areas of study, which can be grouped into two broad sections - ornamentals and edibles:

- Arboriculture the study and selection, planting, care, and removal of individual trees, shrubs, vines, and other perennial woody plants.
- Floriculture (includes production and marketing of floral crops).
- Landscape horticulture (includes production, marketing and maintenance of landscape plants).
- Olericulture (includes production and marketing of vegetables).
- Pomology (includes production and marketing of fruits).
- Viticulture (includes production and marketing of grapes).
- Postharvest physiology (involves maintaining quality and preventing spoilage of horticultural crops).

Horticulturists can work in industry, government or educational institutions or private collections. They can be cropping systems engineers, wholesale or retail business managers, propagators and tissue culture specialists (fruits, vegetables, ornamentals, and turf), crop inspectors, crop production advisers, extension specialists, plant breeders, research scientists, and of course, teachers.

[Dalzieldrin]

My open apologies if your felt i was playing the player and not the ball.


perhaps we work with different values, but i don't see "sorry if you thought i offended you" as carrying any meaning

you either see that it's playing the player and not the ball, or you don't.



I try not to moderate open discussions where 2 people feel passionate about a subject and have different points of view.

As a moderator, I look out for Spam posts and offensive language.


a moderator has already commented on the subject of playing the ball and not the player - I am waiting to see if consistency is the operating principle on this board.

[Dalzieldrin]

[quote]iv) You've been invited to explain why you think thepoolroom, myself and others are wrong but you have shown a distinct reluctance to post anything of substance that might allow the reader to understand your position.

Apologies, i thought i posted this above...

How much of a Permaculture system would be based around Sustainable Agriculture & Horticulture practices ?

The Wikipedia definition of Agriculture...


Agriculture refers to the production of food and goods through farming and forestry. Agriculture was the key development that led to the rise of civilization, with the husbandry of domesticated animals and plants (i.e. crops) creating food surpluses that enabled the development of more densely populated and stratified societies. The study of agriculture is known as agricultural science (the related practice of gardening is studied in horticulture).

Agriculture encompasses a wide variety of specialties and techniques, including ways to expand the lands suitable for plant raising, by digging water-channels and other forms of irrigation. Cultivation of crops on arable land and the pastoral herding of livestock on rangeland remain at the foundation of agriculture. In the past century there has been increasing concern to identify and quantify various forms of agriculture. In the developed world the range usually extends between sustainable agriculture (e.g. permaculture or organic agriculture) and intensive farming (e.g. industrial agriculture).


The Wikipedia definition of the Study of Horticulture...


Horticulture involves eight areas of study, which can be grouped into two broad sections - ornamentals and edibles:

- Arboriculture the study and selection, planting, care, and removal of individual trees, shrubs, vines, and other perennial woody plants.
- Floriculture (includes production and marketing of floral crops).
- Landscape horticulture (includes production, marketing and maintenance of landscape plants).
- Olericulture (includes production and marketing of vegetables).
- Pomology (includes production and marketing of fruits).
- Viticulture (includes production and marketing of grapes).
- Postharvest physiology (involves maintaining quality and preventing spoilage of horticultural crops).

Horticulturists can work in industry, government or educational institutions or private collections. They can be cropping systems engineers, wholesale or retail business managers, propagators and tissue culture specialists (fruits, vegetables, ornamentals, and turf), crop inspectors, crop production advisers, extension specialists, plant breeders, research scientists, and of course, teachers.
[/quote:1tgohkd8]


great, so you can quote definitions.

that's not an explanation. but, no matter - it's clear you're not prepared to accept you were mistaken. and in any case this is not meant to be a witch-hunt or an exercise in making you see what's staring you in the face.

I wanted to be sure I understood what is meant by the terms Permaculture and Horticulture, and the concepts that underlie these terms, and that i wasn't incorrect in thinking, like thepoolroom does, that to suggest Permaculture is a "sub-group" of Horticulture is patently absurd

[Dalzieldrin]

My open apologies if your felt i was playing the player and not the ball.

I try not to moderate open discussions where 2 people feel passionate about a subject and have different points of view.

As a moderator, I look out for Spam posts and offensive language.


really?


Hello Dalzieldrin,

You are receiving this notification because the report you filed on the
post "Re: Permaculture is a sub-culture of Horticulture" in "Permaculture
is a sub-culture of Horticulture" at "Permaculture discussion forum" was
handled by a moderator or by an administrator. The report was afterwards
closed. If you have further questions contact milifestyle with a personal
message.


--
Thanks, The Management


how very interesting

[milifestyle]

Your query on the thread was "poster is playing the player, not the ball" (or something similar).

I apologised in this thread for having done that, though your political correctness pointed out that my apology, though genuine was worded incorrectly. Either way, i made my apologies.

Having done so i closed the report you made. Note, I CLOSED the report... I didn't delete any posts or moderate anything other than closing the report.

Your not going to trip me that easily... :)

[Dalzieldrin]

Your not going to trip me that easily... :)

how very revealing

anyway, it's not about tripping anybody up, just exposing what the system is here

when i do something a moderator doesn't like, i get told to 'tone it down'

when a moderator does the very same thing, they can just brush the criticism aside as though it was never raised

awesome

[Dalzieldrin]

I apologised in this thread for having done that, though your political correctness pointed out that my apology, though genuine was worded incorrectly. Either way, i made my apologies.


political correctness???

it would be nice to think that your apology was sincere and, that being the case, that I could accept it and we could skip off into the sunset

is it 'political correctness' to be be able to recognise that there are substantial differences between these statements:

A: "I'm sorry if you feel my karma ran over your dogma"

B: "I'm sorry that you feel my karma ran over your dogma"

C: "I'm sorry that my karma ran over your dogma"

:?:

Only "C" is a sincere apology - "A" and "B" are merely evasive equivocations. But, as I've already suggested, perhaps we work with different values.

[milifestyle]

From the replies and comments I can now say i have a new understanding of what permaculture is and how it works.

9anda1f,

:?: Would I be correct in saying that Permaculture is, in practice, more of a PermaSystem than a culture ?

A system which includes many practices involved in Organic Horticulture, Sustaibnable Agriculture, Natural Energy, Self Sufficiency, etc.

Perhaps, if this is the case I am more of a Permaculturalist than a Horticulturalist since my day to day business involves a system like permaculture approach...

I'd appreciate your feedback... here or by PM.

Thanks for starting this thread, its been very educational.

[9anda1f]

My own, personal definition of Permaculture is that it is a way for humans to live in concert with the natural world (instead of in conflict with nature, as has been done for the past century or longer). Permaculture is a design philosophy for human life on the planet Earth.

This is a very broad perspective. It is an approach to human life on this planet and all that encompasses. It is an approach that embraces nurture of our spinning globe instead of conquering it. It pertains to all of our human endeavors. Permaculture illustrates by showing multiple techniques, but tempers application of technique with the admonishment to observe .... observe the peculiar combinations of environment unique to one's own local human location, then to design a human habitat based on that.

Permaculture is far, far more than just growing plants.

[milifestyle]

Thanks,

Yes, i understand that permaculture is far more than growing plants. I used to think Horticulture was too, especially Organic Horticulture practices.

From a personal point of view i will probably always see permaculture based around Horticulture & Agriculture practices, but i also agree (and see) with the overall opinion here that it is an entity in itself.

[Dalzieldrin]

Permaculture is a design philosophy for human life on the planet Earth.

quite right - and that description fits well with the idea of the word deriving from permanence in culture




Thanks for starting this thread, its been very educational.

you're welcome

[thepoolroom]

Would I be correct in saying that Permaculture is, in practice, more of a PermaSystem than a culture ?

I'd so no, that wouldn't be correct. One of the co-originators of the idea of permaculture, Bill Mollison, has always taken great pains to point out that while "permaculture" started out as a contraction of "permanent agriculture", it was also always intended to allude to "permanent culture". It's a way for a society to live sustainably, i.e. to keep living their lifestyle (or culture) indefinitely, rather than running down natural resources until they collapse.

When looking at long-lasting cultures through history, their practices, beliefs, ceremonies, creative activities (song, dance, story, art, etc) and so on are all intertwined, and all support the long-term sustainability of their way of life. This is their culture, not just a "system".

[milifestyle]

An interesting artilce... somewhat related to the topic.

http://www.urbanscout.org/horticulture-vs-agriculture/

[milifestyle]

Source: http://anthropik.com/2007/06/agricultur ... ds-matter/ (http://anthropik.com/2007/06/agriculture-or-permaculture-why-words-matter/)

But neither does this indict all types of cultivation, because cultivation does not need to be a literal world-wide catastrophe; it can also be a pro-active human involvement in succession, and can allow us to take some part in rewilding the species we’ve domesticated and healing some of the ecological damage we’ve caused. This brings us to the question of permaculture, originally conceived of as “permanent agriculture” with the same, hyper-extended sense of the term that eliminates the word “cultivation” entirely. Later, it was revised as “permanent culture.” One of the movement’s two founders, David Holmgren, put it thus:

‘The word permaculture was coined by Bill Mollison and myself in the mid-1970s to describe an “integrated, evolving system of perennial or self-perpetuating plant and animal species useful to man”. A more current definition of permaculture, which reflects the expansion of focus implicit in Permaculture One, is “Consciously designed landscapes which mimic the patterns and relationships found in nature, while yielding an abundance of food, fibre and energy for provision of local needs”. People, their buildings and the ways they organise themselves are central to permaculture. Thus the permaculture vision of permanent (sustainable) agriculture has evolved into one of permanent (sustainable) culture.

Bill Mollison offers a definition, as well:

The aim is to create systems that are ecologically-sound and economically viable, which provide for their own needs, do not exploit or pollute, and are therefore sustainable in the long term.

Permaculture uses the inherent qualities of plants and animals combined with the natural characteristics of landscapes and structures to produce a life-supporting system for city and country, using the smallest practical area.

The fact that so many favorite permacultural techniques—enhancing edge, intercropping, guilds, and even many of Fukoka’s techniques like seedballs—are to be found among horticultural cultures around the world, is certainly instructive. Is there anything that can distinguish permaculture from horticulture? To date, I have been unable to find anything, leading me to the conclusion that permaculture is largely re-inventing the horticulturalist wheel. To what extent modern permaculturalists learn from primitive examples, the fusion of modern ecological principles with indigenous knowledge could produce precisely the kind of syncretic practices that we so desperately need in the shadow of agriculture’s global catastrophe.

Such potential is enormous; in her powerful article, “Ecological Collapse, Trauma and Permaculture,” trauma survivor Lisa Raynor outlines the striking similarities between the trauma of ecological collapse, and the personal collapse involved in trauma, as well as the ecopsychological connections between the two. She also details the similarities between permaculture and trauma therapy, and the potential for permaculture for healing the trauma of agricultural catastrophe.

While the so-called “cultivation continuum” between agriculture and horticulture is problematized by opposing relationships with succession that mark a clear ecological distinction between the two, there is a smooth continuum from horticulture/permaculture and hunter-gatherers. The world has never seen a “pure” hunter-gatherer society that never uses any kind of cultivation techniques. Some come much closer than others, but even the most extreme will scatter seeds or leave more of one plant behind than another so that there will be more of it the next year. Hunter-gatherers have typically used fire to reshape ecologies on a large scale, for instance, or cultivated vast “food forests” in which they foraged.

[Dalzieldrin]

An interesting artilce... somewhat related to the topic.

http://www.urbanscout.org/horticulture-vs-agriculture/


quite relevant:

"Horticulture comes from the combination of the Latin words hortus (garden) and cultura. Cultivating a field vs. cultivating a garden."

to return to the point of the thread - permaculture, as you see from what you've quoted of Mollison, extends far beyond the remit of horticulture

QED

[thepoolroom]

People, their buildings and the ways they organise themselves are central to permaculture.

I don't think horticulture covers that stuff, so permaculture can't be a sub-culture of horticulture. For A to be a subset of B, every element of A must be present in B.


The fact that so many favorite permacultural techniques—enhancing edge, intercropping, guilds, and even many of Fukoka’s techniques like seedballs—are to be found among horticultural cultures around the world, is certainly instructive.

You seem to be saying that because permaculture uses some horticultural techniques, it's therefore a sub-culture of horticulture. That's not a valid conclusion.

I agree with you that they're related, and they each have a lot to offer the other. Neither exists in a vacuum. But permaculture encompasses a lot more than just the "growing stuff" that it shares with horticulture.

[milifestyle]

Again, i ask this question generally as i stand corrected in my theory as stated above...

Plants are the basis of life...

We eat plants.
We feed grass to cattle - we eat beef.
We feed vegetable scraps to pigs - we eat pork.
We feed food scraps, wheat, corn etc to chooks - we eat eggs and chicken.
We feed rabbits on grass, hay and grain - We eat rabbit and use their pelts (or wool).
We feed goats on grass, weeds etc - we drink their milk.
We make compost from food scraps, clippings hay and manure - Compost feeds our new plants/crops.

Though not complete, thats a system in itself which couldn't exist without plants.

[Dalzieldrin]

i haven't heard any permaculturalists saying that we can dispense with earthworms - that they are uneccessary, are not required in a complete sustainable system

but it doesn't follow from this that permaculture is a sub-set of vermiculture

[milifestyle]

i haven't heard any permaculturalists saying that we can dispense with earthworms - that they are uneccessary, are not required in a complete sustainable system

but it doesn't follow from this that permaculture is a sub-set of vermiculture

True, but Vermiculture could be considered a sub-culture of Horticulture... Horticulture is a big wheel with many spokes.

Without plants, there is no life... no decaying matter for worms to eat or excrete.

Permaculture is not a monoculture so comparing it to Agriculture is not 100% correct either. Permaculture is a self supporting system which, by default has to be based around plants. Plants being the basis of life.

[Dalzieldrin]

what's your point?

[ecodharmamark]

G'day All

In a word, no.

Permaculture is not a subculture of Horticulture.

"Permaculture is for those who already understand or sense the reality of transition and descent and want to give practical and integrated expression to that reality, whether the rest of society is ready or not to do so." (Holmgren 2002, p. 69)

Holmgren, D. (2002) Permaculture: Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability. Hepburn Springs: Holmgren Design Services.

Permaculture is both a theory and a practice, which when applied correctly provides for the future of human existance.

Permaculture is a human construct, one that mimics natural systems in order to provide for the perpetuation of an un-natural (yet sustainable) human experience.

50% of the world's population now live in an urban environment, an environment that has been built by humans. By 2050 it is estimated that 70% of the world's population will be living an urbane existance (UN 2008).

UN (2008) World Urbanization Prospects. Available at: http://esa.un.org/unup/p2k0data.asp and viewed on: 3 June 2009

Permaculture has come a long way since Permaculture One, and just as well, because if all we have to rely on in order to survive the coming period of transition and descent is Horticulture (or other some other part of the whole equation), then the human experience that we have all come to relate to (regardless of our cultural setting), will no longer exist.

Hooroo, Mark.

Suggested reading:

Goldie, Douglas and Furnass (2005) In Search of Sustainability. Melbourne: CSIRO.

Hopkins (2009) The Transition Handbook: Creating local sustainable communities beyond oil dependency (Australian and New Zealand edition). Sydney: Finch Publishing.

McManus (2005) Vortex Cities to Sustainable Cities: Australia’s Urban Challenge. Sydney: UNSW Press.

Newman, Beatley and Boyer (2009) Resilient Cities: Responding to Peak Oil and Climate Change. Washington: Island Press.

Newton (2008) Transitions: Pathways Towards Sustainable Urban Development in Australia. Melbourne: CSIRO.

[milifestyle]

Thank you for the resources & references...

[thepoolroom]

Not sure where you're going with the "plants are the basis of life" thing. Do you have to categorise and form a hierarchy out of everything? Do we really have to anoint something as "the basis" or "the boss"?

You could just as easily argue that animals are the basis of life. Without animals there'd be no plants.

- animals turn O2 (plants' waste gas) into CO2 (needed by plants to survive)
- many (most?) plants require animals (insects) to reproduce
- animals disperse seeds for plants, allowing them to spread
- animal manure provides nutrients for plants
- dead animals are broken down by microorganisms to provide nutrients for plants
- microorganisms (tiny animals) break down leaves, dead plants, etc to recycle the nutrients for new plants to grow

Similarly, fungi could be argued as the basis of life - without them, we'd quickly perish. Read any book by Paul Stamets to see why.

Isn't it enough to just say that life on earth is intimately interdependent? Remove any element, and you'll affect the whole - possibly catastrophically. Only humans try to isolate one thing as "king"; nature doesn't.

[milifestyle]

Not sure where you're going with the "plants are the basis of life" thing. Do you have to categorise and form a hierarchy out of everything? Do we really have to anoint something as "the basis" or "the boss"?

You could just as easily argue that animals are the basis of life. Without animals there'd be no plants.

- animals turn O2 (plants' waste gas) into CO2 (needed by plants to survive)
- many (most?) plants require animals (insects) to reproduce
- animals disperse seeds for plants, allowing them to spread
- animal manure provides nutrients for plants
- dead animals are broken down by microorganisms to provide nutrients for plants
- microorganisms (tiny animals) break down leaves, dead plants, etc to recycle the nutrients for new plants to grow

Similarly, fungi could be argued as the basis of life - without them, we'd quickly perish. Read any book by Paul Stamets to see why.

Isn't it enough to just say that life on earth is intimately interdependent? Remove any element, and you'll affect the whole - possibly catastrophically. Only humans try to isolate one thing as "king"; nature doesn't.

True. But where are the animals without a feed source. Even in the plains of africa Lions (carnivores) eat animals that graze (herbivores).

Would anyone go and buy a dozen cattle before establishing a feed source for them first ?

[Dalzieldrin]

If i could try to paraphrase thepoolroom (and tell me if I've got this wrong) by repeating my previous question:

what is your point?

[milifestyle]

If i could try to paraphrase thepoolroom (and tell me if I've got this wrong) by repeating my previous question:

what is your point?

Point being... plants probably have a bigger role to play within the permaculture system than expected.

From...
- Human food to animal food
- Bio Char to Mulch & compost
- Heating the house to feeding the worms

[Dalzieldrin]

ok...i'm still not quite sure what you're driving at, but ok

[milifestyle]

ok...i'm still not quite sure what you're driving at, but ok

the potential for permaculture to be a sub-culture of horticulture... wasn't that why you started this thread :?

[Dalzieldrin]

ok...i'm still not quite sure what you're driving at, but ok

the potential for permaculture to be a sub-culture of horticulture... wasn't that why you started this thread :?


ah...i thought you had conceded the point sometime back. either you've edited your posts or i misread what you posted, it was probably the latter.

if you define permaculture as the science of cultivating plants and if you also define horticulture as a broad philosophy for sustainable living, that encompasses, amongst other things, the cultivation of plants, then you're spot on, permaculture is a 'sub-culture' of horticulture

other than that, you asked to be corrected if you were wrong: mission accomplished :wink:

horse flogging dead



[/thread] 8)

[milifestyle]

Yes, I did concede that the overall opinion is that Permaculture is not a sub-culture of Horticulture...

But i am still a Perma-Horticulturalist :wink:

Pharlap has left the building... :lol:

[milifestyle]

No sense starting a new thread to ask this question...

Often I hear or read the term Permaculture Garden. Is "Garden" the correct term or would "System" be more precise ?

[eco4560]

Wouldn't a permaculture garden be merely a part of the overall system? A system that includes house, dam / pond / other water, forestry, roads etc.

[milifestyle]

Wouldn't a permaculture garden be merely a part of the overall system? A system that includes house, dam / pond / other water, forestry, roads etc.

So referencing a permaculture garden would be discussing a small part of the system... That makes sense.

[thepoolroom]

I guess when someone talks about a "permaculture garden" it implies that it's part of a larger system. It probably also implies things like organic, non-GM, reduced use of outside resources, etc.

Then again, it depends upon who is doing the talking. They might just mean "vegie garden" but want to sound cool :-).

[thepoolroom]

(in reference to statement about plants requiring animals)


But where are the animals without a feed source.

You could just as easily say "but where are the plants without a food source?". They can't exist without animals and fungi.

I still don't get what you're driving at, and don't see why you need something to be "the basis".

You stated that you wouldn't get animals until you had a pasture going. I'd retort that you wouldn't start a pasture until you had developed healthy soil, and that requires animals and fungi. The pasture wouldn't grow in rock dust or sand.

[eco4560]

Sounds a bit chicken and egg - ish....

[milifestyle]

Sounds a bit chicken and egg - ish....

Yes, i was thinking that myself :)

Pool,

Decaying plant matter provides a huge source of plant nutrient and a home for soil micro's. Decaying insects and crawlies also add to the nutrient level.

Sunlight, Chlorophyll, photosynthesis, basic botany really. Plants use sunlight to produce energy. Plants die add nutrients and stored energy to the soil and the system repeats.

Bacteria and insects Yes. But i think plants would survive ok without animals ?

[Dalzieldrin]

But i think plants would survive ok without animals ?

:shock:


*grabs popcorn*

[milifestyle]

But i think plants would survive ok without animals ?

:shock:


*grabs popcorn*

:lol: :lol: :lol: Doesn't your science reach that far, Dieldron ?

[9anda1f]

milifestyle wrote:
But i think plants would survive ok without animals ?


Whoa! You might want to do some "research" and give some serious thought to the inter-relatedness of all things in this web-of-life we live in here on the planet Earth.

[milifestyle]

milifestyle wrote:
But i think plants would survive ok without animals ?


Whoa! You might want to do some "research" and give some serious thought to the inter-relatedness of all things in this web-of-life we live in here on the planet Earth.

In the Permacultural, everything balances nature, nutrient source etc point of view, absolutely. The inter-relatedness holds true. However Insects and birds would probably be of more benefit to plants than land dwelling animals.

The original point being. If we had no plants for the cow to eat she wouldn't exist to produce milk, meat or nutrient. In fact, without plants, we'd probably be living on a planet like Mars.... :?

[Dalzieldrin]

But i think plants would survive ok without animals ?

:shock:


*grabs popcorn*

:lol: :lol: :lol: Doesn't your science reach that far, Dieldron ?

i) It's D A L Z I E L D R I N. This might help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copy_and_paste. I'd complain to a moderator, but what are you going to do, slap yourself on the wrist?

ii) my response was simply an anticipation of the inevitable:

Whoa! You might want to do some "research" and give some serious thought to the inter-relatedness of all things in this web-of-life we live in here on the planet Earth."


brilliantly put, btw, 9andalf

[Dalzieldrin]

However Insects and birds would probably be of more benefit to plants than land dwelling animals.

goodness! you really don't know when to stop digging, do you?!?

[milifestyle]

Horticulturalists never know when to stop digging :lol:

There's more than one moderator here. If i'm doing the wrong thing i'd be happy to recieve a slap from any moderator or Murray.

Best make it a public slapping though. :D

[thepoolroom]

Seriously, plants, animals, fungi, insects, bacteria, etc all co-evolved here on planet earth. They have evolved together, with each filling niches and fulfilling functions required by the others. They rely on each other. Remove one, and who knows what will happen to the rest?

I've no idea why you want to categorise animals as unnecessary. Where are you coming from? Do you want to set up your own patch of land without any animals to look after? Or are you just curious, doing thought-experiments?

[milifestyle]

Seriously, plants, animals, fungi, insects, bacteria, etc all co-evolved here on planet earth. They have evolved together, with each filling niches and fulfilling functions required by the others. They rely on each other. Remove one, and who knows what will happen to the rest?

I've no idea why you want to categorise animals as unnecessary. Where are you coming from? Do you want to set up your own patch of land without any animals to look after? Or are you just curious, doing thought-experiments?

Not unnecessary, only that all life has a connection to horticulture... hence the topic of this debate...