why is the goverment so stupid?

[teela]

Why is it I could get a goverment grant for satalite broadband easy as falling out of a tree and yet trying to get a goverment grant for solar power is an uphill struggle? Then at the end of that up-hill climb its only a pittence anyway, with a million conditions? (so I've heard) Same goes for rainwater tanks.
Makes one wonder if the Gov are really serious about combating climate change.

[bill]

Teela - why would you think this Govt is serious about combating climate change? Has Australia signed the Kyoto agreement? [/quote]

[hedwig]

try to get another government!

[ecodharmamark]

G'day teela :)

Could I suggest a response to your question? Governments are so stupid because stupid people put them there. Harsh, I know, but a government is only as good as the people who vote them in.

The only way I can see a way forward (after half a life-time of asking myself the very same question) is to create a truly enlightened global community that is free of 'stupid' people and therefore free from 'stupid' government.

Not an easy task, I'm sure you'll agree. Inequality is the greatest barrier to education and thus freedom from 'stupidity'. But how do we educate the masses rather than endoctrinate? My belief is we start in our own back yard (zone 1), and work out from there. Infiltrate your local council; plant the seeds of permaculture everywhere you go, and eventually we will see the fruits of our labours. Provide the 'stupid' people with rational and reasoned knowledge - born out of careful observation of our natural environment - and wisdom will surely follow.

Cheers, Mark.

[bovine_blue]

Why don't the government tax resource use and pollution creation instead of personal income and business profit?

It seems strange that the person running the permie course gets taxed at the same rate as the person cutting down the forests. Maybe if people had to pay to destroy the environment, they might think twice about it.

[gardenlen]

rebates are a poor way to get people to think more sustainably, rebates on water tanks and solar power just equate to easier and more profits for the suppliers/makers, not value for money spent on tax payers behalf and not doing much for the environment either well apart from the environment of the profit makers pockets.

and as for the sattelite broadband rebate, i believe everyone should have the opportunity to avail of broadband service but i don't think rebates are the best way to achieveing this, as in the above cases it pushes end prices up for greater profits.

and as for taxing different industries so as to penalise for damaging the eco' system that won't work as those who do the damage will simply pass the extra cost on down to the lowest common denominator 'US'!! who can least afford it.

me i just think we have to move on from party politics to run our country, we need something akin to a team to run us like a sutainable business, where we the people have the power to hire and fire. the greatest downturn in the voting system the advent of the 18 year age group vote.

len

[frosty]

the saying that springs to mind about our current govt ( seen a sig on a political board ) is not all conservatives are stupid - but most stupid people are conservatives :lol: :lol: :lol:

Len when you aid
me i just think we have to move on from party politics to run our country, we need something akin to a team to run us like a sutainable business you describe govt by consensus ....... the Greens "party" is run by consensus ......... and contrary to the way the media keep calling Bob Brown our party leader :-x the party has NO leader just a team of policicians - presleted by every member who bothers to vote

frosty

[Alex M]

I live in an area where a rainwater tank is essential, so I don't get a rebate. Because of the rebate, however, tanks have become more expensive, and there's a wait of around three months.

So why are governments so stupid?


"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say that there is plenty more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe."

Frank Zappa

:D :lol: :) :o :( :cry: :evil:

[bovine_blue]

and as for taxing different industries so as to penalise for damaging the eco' system that won't work as those who do the damage will simply pass the extra cost on down to the lowest common denominator 'US'!! who can least afford it.

That's the idea len. If business had to pay for their environmental costs, we could stop a lot of the damage they do. This would allow companies who do the right thing to compete. At the moment, a lot of costs are externalised to the envionment or to the general public (think health costs associated with pollution). If people had to pay the true cost associated with the products they buy, it may be possible to create a more level playing field.

Don't forgt I would also want a removal of other forms of tax that we pay. Living simply without having to pay land tax or tax on your income would allow it to be a more attractive lifestyle choice.

[gardenlen]

alex,


I live in an area where a rainwater tank is essential, so I don't get a rebate. Because of the rebate, however, tanks have become more expensive, and there's a wait of around three months.


that's so true even up- here mate, no rebate for rural folk who ahve no other water resource, just dearer tanks that they have to now wait up to 12 weeks for, initially the tank companies stopped discounting tanks to rural folk and slugged them full retail now that the gravy train is well entrenched the cost of tanks ahs risen, rural tank makers not so much as these rip off lords in the cities but.

bovine_blue,

i would agree to making buisness more responsible through taxing but it would need to be a direct tax that could be monitored and then how would you stop them from passing it on down the line anyway. even with our water restrictions if they force cost pain onto buisness they won't care as the little people already feeling the pain of restrictions and extra water cost will just get hit at the retail counter as well and greedy share holders will still profit with no pain.

the gov' would have to put on a price freeze at which time those companies would then shut up shop and move off shore, so there is only ever going to be a win lose situation hey?

len

[ho-hum]

Tanks are made of oil-based polymers and current tank prices reflect a massive increase in oil prices over the past few years.

Wheelie-bins, witches hats and 'plastic' boats have all risen dramatically in price.

[Alex M]

I was originally after a steel tank (for fire protection), but baulked at the price and the long wait. The slightly cheaper plastic happened to be in stock at a local supplier. When I mentioned to the deliverer that I had wanted steel, he said that he also delivers water to rural households, and is seeing relatively new steel tanks starting to rust.

They don't make anything like they used to. :cry: Maybe they never did. :wink:

[gardenlen]

go for the poly alex,

the zincaluum not anywhere enar as good as the old galvenised days, steel tanks that are not aqua coated (more expense) last about 5 years get a cement tank if you are realy concerened about the fire factor.

len

[Alex M]

You're right, Len. My permanent home will have a concrete tank, and I think that, as with so many things, if you want a good job done well, you often have to do it yourself. And they don't have to be boring, bulky cylinders!

For anyone interested, here are some interesting links to do-it-yourself tanks:

http://aquamor.tripod.com/rainwaterb.htm :)

http://www.oasisdesign.net/water/storage/ 8)

http://www.green-trust.org/2003/ferrocement/default.htm :D

http://www.lboro.ac.uk/well/resources/t ... -tanks.pdf (http://www.lboro.ac.uk/well/resources/technical-briefs/36-ferrocement-water-tanks.pdf) 8)

[Alex M]

Makes one wonder if the Gov are really serious about combating climate change.

Sadly, they are not. With few exceptions, they're serious about holding onto power and the ensuing personal benefits. Everything else is a side-issue. :(

[gardenlen]

g'day alex,

i have seen a few cement tanks with cracks that need reparing in that event the water level need to be below the repair line. not sure if by ground vibrations causing it but one bloke opted for a poly tank for his second tank after his cement tank cracked a couple of times.

can see the fire resistance of a cement tank being needed for a tank out in the paddock or up a hill where fire can get to it, but around the home you should have a 10 meter clear or fire management zone anyway, and for tall trees 60 to 100 meters away for lots of reason other than fire.

have a look at how we had our tanks they where near the home so logically if they where going to be damaged by fire then the home would as well, but we had the mangement zone, and the only shrubby trees near the home were the sort where the foliage could be cut off in the event of a fire and they would re-sprout.

fortunatley for qlders we don't get those tree top infirno's like happens down south, most of ours are at worst scrub fires or grass fires, and yes people do suffer and loss of building/stock but mostly you will find that their management is lacking and they take risks beyond their capacity.

at the end of the day life is more important than any other consideration.

len

[bovine_blue]

len

A cement tank should be fine if it is done properly. The main problem with cement is that there is so much variability in the end product depending on the quality of the workmanship.

[gg]

a government is only as good as the people who vote them in.


Unless the election is stolen! 8)


About water tanks, I live in an area where everyone has a water tank for rainwater catch. I currently have a 10 year old Doughboy above ground swimming pool with a food grade liner. It is now falling apart and has sprung a leak or 2 or 3. Yikes! :? So...I was going to spend about $2,700 to get one of the new steel tanks with a food grade liner as I run the whole house and animals off it. The tank itself is $1400 with liner and the price includes a new cover, bracing and pad refurbishment. Too bad they are not galvanized, but glad to see they can be painted/treated against rust. I haven't seen any here done that way, but will certainly look into it!.

We have acid rain/air here a bit of the time due to the active volcano, so things rust quite easily unless covered with a plastic or wiped down religiously.
I had a covered inground concrete rain catch while living in the Marshalls. The only thing is, it leaches stuff into the water and so was okay for everything but drinking. In the 2 years I was there, we had no problem with cracks, but I remember siphoning it out and scrubbing it down with bleach a couple times a year.

I think water out of a plastic barrel tastes funny. My great grandparents had the old whisky barrels for their rainbarrels. Hardened oak and charcoalaized on the inside (or whatever the real term is for it hehe). That was some sweet water.

I am so glad I found this site and all of you. I have been learning so many new things in the last couple of days. :D

gg

[arawajo]

We are in Kilkivan, very rural, and have just bought a 5 000 gal plastic tank. We got the tank rebate and the tank was only two weeks from order to delivery. Delivery was free too. Must admit these things surprised us!

[gardenlen]

g'day arawajo,

that's good news about the delivery time, who did you buy from if i can be sold bold as to ask?

and in ball park figures what price was it?

that's a good sized tank we live in the suburbs and we got one that size, pretty much should make us highly self reliant on our own water. at least tanks that size make the rebate good value for money as far as the gov' spending tax payers money goes.

lots in the city simply don't aks enough questions around the traps before they consider a tank so they end up buying much dearer tanks from city makers when rural makers deliver far better deals, as you found out.

len

[arawajo]

No worries gardenlen - happy to share. Tank was bought from Tanks Direct at Yandina for $2750. Rebate is $1000.

[gardenlen]

no worries thanks for that,

just for your own info' maybe if you buy another shop around a bit more if you already didn't? compare bundaberg tanks and bushman tanks maybe they are 2 of the better known rural makers who will deliver free to your area.

i've always shopped with bundy tanks the 5k gall (25k litre) tank we bought last august cost $2250.

take care

len

[arawajo]

Yes - I checked many companies and I think the cheaper tanks were a squat shape which would mean a larger area to prepare so we went for the taller tank that was dearer.

[Alex M]

Thanks Len. I'm in the middle of a dry sclerophyl forest, but fire is not such a problem as I have a reasonable cleared area around my shed. I just don't like the idea of my main water supply going up in smoke!

I suppose there are pro's and con's with any tank material, and as it happens I'm pretty happy the plastic one. It'll take up to 3 months of average rain to fill. :?

I have another, smaller, plastic tank that is maybe 8 years old, and it still looks good, although the water has become contaminated with leaf material over the years of unoccupancy.

I didn't even look into the rebate as I guess it's for suburban homes, not for the likes of my little "wilderness retreat". :lol:

GG, you seem to have some interesting issues with rainwater where you are. I wonder if a first flush device would be any help with the volcanic material? :shock:

[gg]

I do a first flush after several days of dry weather...the old fashioned way. I manually divert the pipe coming from the gutters and then reconnect when I reckon it's right. Very unscientific, I know! lol

I know there are other devices and when I redo the gutter system in a couple of years I will look into that. This catchment business is new to me too.

They don't sell the big plastic 5,000 gal. tanks here. Do you then purchase drinking water? Or is is a food grade plastic they are made from?

[gardenlen]

gg,

have you looked into those filter bags that can be fitted under the screen where the water comes in? they come in varying micron grades?

ther are some fairly cheap and simple first flush systems around we are using one and for me this way is better management as i can still collect that water and use it around the agrdens it also lets me get some picture of what may come off the roof from time to time.

ours is available as a kit (you only need to supply and extra length of 90mm pipe (ours are 1meter long that holds app' 7 litres of water), they work on a floating ball so when the tube fills the ball shuts off the open end and the wate then runs through to the tank.

len

[gg]

Hi Len,
I have a 5 micron, then a 20 micron filter(s) after the catch before it is brought to the house. I have a old pantyhose (LOL) stuck onto the end off the pipe before the water goes into the catch to catch the really big stuff. I flush the gutters only after a spell of dry weather (like a week) lol. It rains most of the time here in Puna. :wink:

I will look into the gadget you are talking about though. Although it is nothing to put on your swimsuit and go out in the rain. It's usually fairly warm year round.

How nice to have a rebate. Guess we don't here because so many are forced to have catchment if they want water at all. I prefer it muchly to the county water.

[gardenlen]

g'day gg,

right our climate much different to that! where i am hot/warm long summer app' 8 months but winter too cold to go outside without umbrella if it rains.

anyhow our rebate is to seduce people into buying tanks and help conserve our dimishing water levels :oops: , silly realy hey blackmail people into conserving.

i prefer the rain water as well don't know how anyone can stomach the town waters.

len

[Jackie K]

The West Aust state government has had a campaign running to encourage water conservation. It has been so effective that now they have announced an increase in water prices...... to cover the loss in profits????? !!!!!! Gaaaaah :? :? :? :? :?

[gardenlen]

since i wrote that last post, they are going to increase price of water here as well but that is so private companies when they get to buy control of our water can make huge profits.

and to cover all those rebates on silly little capacity water tanks all gov's in aus' will charge all people with a water tank a flat rate levy of app' whatever the base water rate value is on the rates notice in your locality (and taking the rebate means you have a contract with the gov' if i read teh fine print correctly), that will get their rebate back, and those who bought small just to get the rebate or didn't want to give up some lifestyle for water will feel the sting worst as their little tanks won't do much to save them using maximum town water, they may fill fast when rain is abundant but they empty fast too when people use them regular not a good equation in drought rain conditions.

up here at present i am seeing a lot more bigger than 3k/lt tanks being delivered in the range of 10k/lt to 25k/lt (now that size makes sense), and vacant lots being filled with unwanted small tanks from 5k/lt down to 2k/lt sizes just siting there waiting for someone to buy them for immidiate delivery, yards and yards full of tanks all over the place.

len

[Alex M]

I think you are right Len.


"THE next world war will be over water," remarked the former Vice-President of the World Bank, Ismail Serageldin, some years ago. That cliched quote, while highlighting the potential for conflict among nations in a water-starved world, does not quite reflect the rising tide of popular anger against growing inequalities in the distribution of water within countries, resulting in water-haves and water have-nots. In particular, the growing tendency of governments to hand over water resources to private companies threatens massive social upheaval. Almost three years after the "water warriors" of Cochabamba, the third largest city in Bolivia, successively reversed the acquisition of the city's water resources by a multinational company, they remain a symbol of hope to people for whom access to water is a basic human right.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2003/ ... 206000.htm (http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2003/stories/20030214000206000.htm)

My guess is that someone - one of several multinational water companies - has already done a secret deal with "our" government(s) to gain control of the nation's water.

[gardenlen]

alex,


My guess is that someone - one of several multinational water companies - has already done a secret deal with "our" government(s) to gain control of the nation's water.

i got no doubt in my mind at all "it's a done deal" i reckon. that is why leaty is wresting control fo all water resources and the little bespectacled gnome is doing the same, once the states take control then the fed's will have control there after.

i've had the opportunity of late to be involved in a survey run for the gov' i would suggest, and it is about recycling water, you get asked the same/similar questions in different ways ('A" typical gov' way of doing things, it's called "double speak").

anyhow i took this opportunity on both accounts to voice my opinion, don't know if it will matter much to them most likley not but my guess others involved will be giving wishy wahsy answers and getting caught up in the "double speak" trap. will get $7 for participating in each survey.

len

[Alex M]

Len, I believe that the government surveys public opinion these days, not to find out what the people want, but to better devise the necessary spin to sell the plans they have contrived in partnership with their cronies.

A very thin veneer of what looks a bit like democracy remains to cover what is, in fact, government on behalf of the interests of corporations, regardless of the wishes and best interests of the people.


once the states take control then the fed's will have control there after.

This is Howard's New Federalism. Using the Corporations Powers of the constitution to centralise power; quite the opposite of its original purpose. :evil:

[gg]

A very thin veneer of what looks a bit like democracy remains to cover what is, in fact, government on behalf of the interests of corporations, regardless of the wishes and best interests of the people.


True. Indeed it looks like a corporate world takeover.

[Jackie K]

Looks like you are right. On the news this morning that the Qld govt is considering privatising water. I'd say as you suggest, that it's already a done deal and this is just the psychological conditioning for the masses. I thought the purpose of Government was to provide, control and guarantee the service of utilities necessary for social order and support industry. Isn't that wy we pay taxes. I could say some very bad words.
Jackie K :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x

[gardenlen]

no utilities should ever be privatised they are owned by the people not the gov's we the people from our forefathers on paid for that infrastructure, and we elect gov' to manage those for us on a non-profit basis that is enough revenue for maintenance and modernisation.

the gov' found out how stupid the electorate was when it sold telstra and the owers of it bought it back as shares, that is a bigger scam than selling the sydney harbour bridge to yanks. be like selling your home and then paying rent to live in it for the rest of you life.

and water and power along with public transport going the same way. the post is a bit harder to do but they are carving up the cake.

must be the price we pay for the 18 year old vote.

len

[Jackie K]

So is this the face of "progress ?

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=270066

NZ woman dies after electricity cut off
Wednesday May 30 10:27 AEST
A New Zealand woman who relied on an oxygen machine died after a power company switched off the electricity to her home, a relative says.

Family spokesman Brenden Sheehan said the woman died on Tuesday despite a contractor for Mercury Energy being told the woman relied on electricity to survive.

"They came to the house and they were aware of the circumstances when it (the power) was cut off," Sheehan told Radio NZ.

Electricity was turned off at about 2pm and the woman died shortly afterwards despite an ambulance being called, according to reports.




Sheehan said the woman was not working because she was too ill, and her husband had reduced his work hours so he could care for her.

Police have launched an investigation into the death but have said it is too early to speculate on murder or manslaughter charges.

A statement from Mercury Energy said the company was investigating the circumstances surrounding the death.

Mercury had policies in place to stop disconnections if the company was made aware of medical need, the statement said.

"The company restored electricity to the household early this morning to help the family through this difficult time," the statement said.

Mercury Energy general manager James Moulder said the company was devastated by the woman's death but would not say how much money was owed on the power bill.

New Zealand's Green Party has called for a public inquiry into the death.

"Is there no social responsibility requirement? No code of conduct?" said the party's Sue Bradford.

"Things are looking very bleak for this country when companies will literally allow someone to die in the pursuit of profits," she said.

Bradford said the government should be demanding answers how the company, controlled by state-owned enterprise Mighty River Power, allowed the woman's power to be cut off.

A spokesman for State Owned Enterprises minister Trevor Mallard said a statement on the incident could be released this afternoon.


Sue the B's

Jackie K
[/quote]

[gardenlen]

says it all jackie!!

[gg]

TY for posting the article Jackie, even though it made me cry. :( Len thank god you have such a nice signature. I needed to read and reread it after that article.

What a terrible state of affairs we appear to be coming to as a species.
I know of cases in the states, each winter where people freeze to death because they are cannot afford to pay the exhorbitant heating bills.

I shudder to think how deaths will increase as the wars for natural resources progress. It's getting more and more difficult to live 'outside' the system.

[Alex M]

As will have read in the article I posted above - http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2003/ ... 206000.htm (http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2003/stories/20030214000206000.htm) - people died protesting in Bolivia, killed by their own army, which was protecting the interests of corporate power against the interference of the people. The corporation was eventually defeated, but I think you'll agree that none of us want to see things go that far in this country.

[Jana]

GOVERNMENT FOR THE PEOPLE BY THE PEOPLE
Isocracy, a government in which all individuals have equal political power.
The ultimate state is "derepression" to release bonds of the socialized karmic mind such that Kosmic Kairos, that is cosmic consciousness can occur bringing the individual up to vibrational speed with the evolutionary flow of Spirit. The trick to being yourself, is to become increasingly fearless about being and expressing who you are and impervious to how others see you, through projection of the transcendent vision from the ahumane (nondual) position. Who knows what is going to be needed in 5 years. All I know is that it will be a vastly different world already and a lot of people are going to need help to keep up and move on. The elimination of the toxic fear generated by existing administrations is the most important agenda of the current era.


See anything by Alex Jones and John Perkins at google video.
Today I found Peter Robbins—Orgone Energy Wilhelm Reich and UFO's, it has some good stuff on the rain making machines as well.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 8301856050 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7602609578301856050)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L3tKddZFic

VIKTOR SCHAUBERGER
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 4275921302 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5643559434275921302)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... chauberger (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4770477589537728517&q=schauberger)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 8400404583 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1598503208400404583) —Schauberger Water Vortex Nature

Also a man with some answers:
John Perkins, Economic Hitman
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... hn+perkins (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2834826693294271277&q=john+perkins)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 3356669182 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3968544393356669182)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjPoeQRewiE

Here is the new book by John Perkins
http://johnperkins.org/paperback.htm

[Tezza]

Whatever you do DONT get angry at any government officials ...Theyll lock u up as an Insurgent......check your dictionary..


If you sit down and demonstrate peacfully YOULL be arrested for being Sedentry (spelling and grammers bad this morning) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Staying at home intead of going to work..Will be arrestable as a non autherised strike....

In west Australia they ennacted a new law back in the 70s i think where its illegal to meet with 2 or more other people in public..Think theres a few simuler in most aussie states if im not wrong....

Has anyone thought of starting a Permaculture Peoples Party or something like that?


They are not STUPID there "fucking dangerous"


Tezza

[Jana]

Yea dangerous.
A helpful way to look at it is to see light and dark as the foundation of existence, represented as a checkerboard...like the Freemasons do. The dark and light work together in a dance to wake each other up. However as consciousness wakes up the light gets lighter and the dark gets darker. Thus it is the brilliancy of hue of the checkerboard itself that is being turned up with each play of the dice. The light need to get organized, because the dark surely are. With the use of the internet now, and collective creativity and celebration there is a chance for us to get an upper hand. If we do not act fully in response to truth in our lifetime, then we only deserve the tyranny we get. Fear is the only thing we need fear.

[heuristics]

no utilities should ever be privatised they are owned by the people not the gov's we the people from our forefathers on paid for that infrastructure, and we elect gov' to manage those for us on a non-profit basis that is enough revenue for maintenance and modernisation.


len

GL, Mate, I am pretty sure we've shared postes on this topic here before, but when it comes to The Corporation owning water - nothing is more scary than the Snowy privatisation scam. The Snowy Mountain sell-off is not on the public agenda radar at the moment, but dont think for a nano second it's really gone away.
Macquarie Bank, who were behind the Snowy Mountain sell off prospectus are also now owners of Thames Water, which provides water and sewerage to 13 million Brits from London and Oxford.
If Mac Bank and its shareholders and clever bastards get hold of the Snowy - they pretyy much control the entire East Coast of Oz - in terms of water and electricity supply, and irrigation.
With the Merchant Banker (wanker) Malcolm Turnbull the Fed minister for water, this little Alladin's cave of wealth will be opened up to the Privates once this Fed election is out of the way.
Vic had its election 2006, NSW had its election March 2007 and the Fed election will be over by Nov, so that leaves the 3 main players and ""öwners"""of the Snowy safe from an electoral backlash. Of course we the people are the REAL owners of the Snowy scheme, and at one time the best way to protect public infrastructure was to have it controlled by the govt - but not any more.

GL you are also right about the tank rebate - it is a carrot to get everyone to buy into the scheme and then -sluggo - we've got you.
Also the scheme is a good way to filter out the sort of people who are "early adopters" of these sort of things.

Howard in Parlt today is defending the money he is giving to the nuclear industry and the advertising campaign the Feds intend to run to convice the Australian people of the merits of nuclear.

No real money for solar or other alternative energy options.

errrgh - sorry - can feel a real raving rant about to erupt, so will quit now.! [/quote]

[johnw]

Why is it I could get a goverment grant for satalite broadband easy as falling out of a tree and yet trying to get a goverment grant for solar power is an uphill struggle? Then at the end of that up-hill climb its only a pittence anyway, with a million conditions? (so I've heard) Same goes for rainwater tanks.
Makes one wonder if the Gov are really serious about combating climate change.

I remember Bill Mollison answering a similar question in the mid 90's and he said that he chooses to ignore them and just focus and channel his energy into what needs to be done.

If labour get in it'll be interesting to see what happens seeing that peter garret is environment minister............................ Go Oils! (not the black kind!! LOL)

[ecodharmamark]

G'day Everyone :)

Earlier today several planning students (myself included), together with our senior lecturer met with Simon Crean (ex leader of the opposition and now minister for regional development) over coffee and cream cakes. We received a well rehearsed (and versed) lecture extolling the benefits of voting for a labor government including a promised $2.7b high-speed broad-band package (courtesy of the 'future fund') etc., etc., etc. (I'll spare you the details :lol: ). But when it came time for us to ask questions and I raised the issue of the big 'S' - Sustainability, Simon (that's what he asked me to call him...does this mean we are on first name basis now, or does he say that to all the students he meets?) went a bit, well, 'funny'. He started talking about everything but the big 'S' word. Anyway, to cut a long story short, my impression was that Simon believes the majority of the voting populace are too busy to be worried about complex issues like the big 'S' word, and that's why the labor party are busy campaigning and offering 'treats' such fast broad-band, etc. Oh, he also said that he was not there to nit-pick at the 'other side', then the very next thing to come out of his mouth was about how his government would have completed a local freeway development project back in 2000 rather than the present government's 2009. At this stage I couldn't stop smiling at him - I really wanted to laugh. Of course I wanted to ask him about the 'S' word in terms of rebuilding public transport infrastructure as opposed to the public/private freeway building projects that they all love so much, but I didn't get a chance. One thing he did seem adamant about was that regional development must begin at the grassroots level - that is, local people working with local communities to solve regional problems (I read this to mean permacultural groups and individuals :D ). He also said that his government will do everything and anything possible to make this happen. I got the impression he was talking about big bags of money - actually, it was the present government's surplus :lol: . So if this mob have a win later this year, remember to hold Simon to his word...at least before the money runs out :lol: .

Hooroo, Mark.

[DirtyDave]

Teela your topics attract alot of attentions, good work.
As I've said before I work in industrial plumbing have worked on multistory buildings, mines, wineries and I've been blown away at the pure waste of water, There are Factories that have the potential to catch giga litres from their roof areas, even if they only used the harvested water for processing, as pollution can be an issue, it would certainly take the pressure off of the Domestic supply of good potable water,
In the Barossa the other day I noticed 5 huge sheds getting steam cleaned for days and don't know why,,,I see large acres of vineyards being irrigated when its raining,,To me there seams to two sort of industry one is concerned about saving water and the other could care less,
The problem here is that the general public that don't see the real picture, I feel sorry for the poor pensioner that rings us up to fix a dripping tap that uses about .001% that evaporate of there garden bed, the cost of our bill converts to about 80,000 litres of bought consumer water, and a few meters down the road is a commercial venture with 100mm water meter clickin over at a few kilo liters a minute, and they put a sign up saying that the tropical garden out front is water from recycled water, why do they have so much excess water in the first place..
The Government Doesn't give a ratz arze about water it comes down to money and the more water they can sell you the better, the river Murray in nothing more than a dry sewer, and it is simply put under to much demand, If their is so much of a water issue why is the government trying to attract more migrants to an already struggling infrastructure, MONEY.
The State Government are planning on Damming a river that has almost stopped flowing and then building a desalination plant that is going to cost over a Billion dollars to Brine up the Golf, which takes 60 years to regenerate its sea water,, I grew up in Henley Beach and I'm 36 years old and I can remember the abundant sea life just at the edge of the water, everyone catching fish, white bait at the waters edge and hundreds of jelly fish, where have they gone, you take a link out and the rest goes into un repairable damage
South Australia is in some really big trouble, and it is not going to be fixed by this government or the next,

[teela]

I couldn't agree with you more Dave. This Gov just isn't serious about the water crisis. Every house should have its own rain water tank, not just a piddly little 1000 litre one either but a proper big one...to be buried underground if neccesary to save space. And there should be more research into composting dunnies. Just think...every time a human goes to the dunny it takes about a litre of water to flush and maybe another litre of water to wash hands. Pure, clean drinking water being used to flush dunnies...unbelievable! When an animal goes it just goes...no water required. And every house should have solar hot water, especially here in SA where almost every day is 'fine n sunny'.

What is the Goverments solution to the water crisis?...to dig deeper where the water is pumped out from the poor old Murray River, so we can pump out at lower than sea level... or build the Mt Bold Res' bigger so they can fill it with... yep more River Murray water. And hey where are all these pollies anyway? Haven't the silly idiots even noticed that the Murray has stopped flowing...hellooooooooo.
I don't have a uni degree and to be honest I aint that smart but even a dumbo like me can see these ideas arn't a good enough plan for a city as big as Adelaide. I can see you don't like the de-salination plant Dave but it's better than the other crap ideas so far. There's hopefully a way to overcome the brining up of the gulf. Build the outlet pipeline longer? Take the salt inland to be harvested? I dunno, there's gotta be a solution, us humans are supposed to be the most intelligent species after all. And money shouldn't be an issue, we now are learning that water makes the world go round not money!

Us humans are just a drain on the planet. Some of us, like yourself Dave and others on this forum, are trying to do better, but in the long run it's the Goverments most of us turn to for leadership and example. And who do we have running the country?...a mob of clowns!
God help the future generation.

[teela]

Oh and while I'm on rant here I forgot to add that if I chose to have another baby, another drain on an already stressed planet, I would get a Goverment payement of...$5000...no questions asked, even easier than fallin out of a tree (Not sure if that is the exact amount, something like that anyway, someone may be able to enlighten me)
But if I want to do environmentaly friendly things such as rain water tanks or Solar power...well it's like gettin blood outta a stone.

Have another 10 babies...'fine here's bucket loads of cash'. But try and do the right thing...'um well fill out these forms we might pay you a pittence for your troubles......eventually'

[Iter Project]

Hey there its obviouse we need immediate changes , current government ideologies is on the knife edge of being outdated with there day to day greed poll driven tendencies , there needs to be action taken to remove the ability of the victorian government to effect major inferstructre projects without proper research and consoltations with the peoples of the state EG : Toxic Waste Dumps , Super Pipes , Desalination Plant , Port Philip Bay Dredging , many of these proposed changes border on crimes against the environment and irresponsability towards future generations , this states infastructers and technologies developments are so far behind due to governments lack of foresight and future plannings and things arnt going to improve even with the small example of antiquated public transport systems with rapidly increasing populations and demands on pt due to skyrocketing fuel and operating costs EG : $500 for a single cars rego , so im afraid to say that the incidence of transport system failures will increase dramatically under currant goverment snail pace like ideologies , its natural for the human mind to sleep under the guise of not rocking the boat and lack of awarnesses and informations and laziness , these are some of the reasons why governments appear so stupid :idea:

[Ojo]

It may not be much, but I think requiring new homes to have rain harvest tanks is a good idea and rebates for putting one in an older home might help too.


This complements the Government's mandatory requirements for most new homes to have rainwater tanks plumbed in

. The rainwater tank must be connected to at least one internal household fixture, such as a toilet, all laundry cold water outlet or hot water service.
excerpts
http://www.sawater.com.au/SAWater/YourH ... +Tanks.htm (http://www.sawater.com.au/SAWater/YourHome/SaveWaterInYourGarden/Rainwater+Tanks.htm)

[Fee]

Fear and greed are the only things I can attribute the madness of some of the decisions this government has made. Two great evils.

We have practiced permaculture principles in our life since 1990 ish when we saw a doco on the ABC about Bill Mol. We have mortgaged ourselves silly to install nine solar pannels on the roof and solar hot water as well as a rain tank. Many Canberrans are green and left of centre.

So when you see the news about the decisions of Canberra, please remeber it is not Canberra a gorgeous rural community of about 350,000 people but the federal politicians they are talking about. :wink:

[Iter Project]

Fear ? that we have not acted quick enough to nuetrilise our greenhouse footprint on this earth after 200 years of stupidity and greed , now im exercising restraint while typing this can someone justify to me why Van Mill after a lifetime of work into solar energy technologies/researchs was ignored by all of this countries governments , and has now gone to California to build solar facilities that will totally replace coal !!! why why why wont this country take the lead ??? All politicions and the scum that lives of them lies under oath that coal based technologies cannot be replaced in a modern economy this is a LIE :!: , another thing regarding nuclear fision technologies versus nuclear fusion technologies , these lies are all based around greed they want to follow fossil fuels to exhaustion then replace fossil fuels with nuclear fision technolgies which based on risk/safety alone should be severly limited , the truth is we should bring forth nuclear fusion /development/technologies and put an end to greenhouse emissions and provide sustainable energy for all , we have 60% of Lithium stores in this country yet we are all but ignoring the development projects now underway , bring forth the truth and end the lies also while reducing our tiers of government and make everything transparent , personal records and details of course should be kept private anything else we have the right to know and discuss 8)

[grease]

The simple truth of 'Why is the Government so stupid' is that they are a reflection of humanity as a whole. Wether we like it or not we vote them in. If things get too bad we overthrow them (ie Russia 1917, America 1778, Burma ?) , Just to find out that that was a bad move. Democracy doesn't work. Socialism/Communism dosen't work.Dictatorships....need I say more? Humanity so loved Gandhi that we shot him (I didn't personally but one of my species did). Our combined history is full of mistakes, what makes you think at this late stage we can change things. This forum is evidence that there is good in the world but I am afraid it is in the minority otherwise something could/would have been done. If we were fit to govern ourselves we would have demonstated it by now. :) :(

[caldera]

"takes a deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep breath"

we have the gift of life

all we can do

is our best

nothing more

nothing less

~

just keep planting seeds

conscious seeds

"The Creation of a thousands forests lies in the heart of a single Seed"

not one of us can possibly imagine the bountiful fruits of our goodwill and efforts to do what we know to be true to ourselves and our community and our earth

be humble for you are made of earth
be noble for you are made of stars


One of the most powerful experiences on this earth is when we recognize our Destiny in life. When we connect with what our job is here on earth, we become alive in the knowingness of our purpose and what we need to share with the world. Your calling in life comes about from identifying your natural talents and gifts and blending those with what your community or environment is most in need of. Where your passion and the need meet – there you have your calling in life. When you calling link with a cause, you can enroll others who have a similar destiny. Creating a community of like-minded folks who share your vision of what is needed in the world can be one most satisfying journeys. At the root of all this is knowing the direction you are heading and then making commitments to move you further on that journey. Knowing your destination (your Destiny) is gives movement towards it. Today, think about your purpose here on earth. What is your Destiny and Legacy for this world?

c'mon ... get back in the garden

:P :P :P :P

[DirtyDave]

Teela,
The Government should give you a Rainwater tank, water saving shower rose, wind generator and a few packets of seed for every new born, might eaz the load a little :lol: :lol: :lol: :idea:

Seriously the government have recently announced not one but two desal plants in an already dieing golf, and one at its most shallow and stagnant point near Pt Augusta, to service the Biggest water user in the state Olympic Dam, Uranium mine, more money based environmental vandalism.
Our Dams are at 80% at present,which is good, the only problem is the amount of people using the water,
Today i read that our fearless leaders are planning to increase the south Australian population to 2 million in the coming years,
South Australia is already stretched to the limits for resources and we need more people, WTF?
I can't help but fell we're in big trouble, everyone will be voting green when theres nothing left to vote for..

[teela]

Another 2 million.....oh boy! thats all Adelaide needs. Didn't I hear something on the news recently about Adelide running out of water by early next year? (I dunno I tend to tune out when the news is on nowdays...it's all bad news anyhow and I'm sick of it) but yeah I think I did hear that and the Gov will have to provide bottled water for everyone to drink. Wow! think of the cost of that. Wouldn't it have been easier and cheaper if the Gov had given everyone a rainwater tank years ago.

I've recently been on a property hunting trip down to Victoria. Along the coast it all looks good, but we came home through Eden NSW through the Snowys, Wagga Wagga, Narrandera, Hay, Mildura...home. Going through the Snowys we could see that it was very dry, more like the end of summer not the end of winter. It didn't get much better after that, the more inland we went the dryer it became.

Speaking of water saving...one caravan park we stayed in (in one of the dryer areas - ok it was Narrandera CP) 2 of the dunnies leaked, none of the dunnies had half flush systems, and no showers had water saver shower heads, and nearly all of them dripped constantly. And right outside, next door was a dry lake and a sad looking trickle in the Murramidgee River. Shouldn't that be enough to encourage water saving efforts?
In fact out of all the caravan parks we stayed at that week I can't think of any that had water saver shower heads and dripping showers seemed the norm.

These days water should be treated like liquid gold. Cause soon, least in SA, thats what it's gunna be.

[DirtyDave]

How green is Mike Rann?

Down at Kilburn, industrial chemist Barry Jones paints a pretty picture of his work. He's explaining his job as production chemist at Solver, Adelaide's largest paint manufacturer. With pigments, solvents, and emulsion he comes up with quite a palette. And to make the colour green his ingredient of choice is a chrome dioxide. But you don't want to get too close to Cr2O3. As it turns out, green is a major irritant.

And an irritant gets under the skin of government in the green leathered, green carpeted House of Assembly. At the last election the Green vote was 6.5 per cent, nearly triple its previous best. South Australians elected a Greens member to Parliament for the first time. The State Government is under attack on climate change, air quality, noise pollution, uranium, the River Murray, fish farms, public transport and even -- as at Port Adelaide -- vandalism of the state's urban heritage.

In opposition, Mike Rann's Labor Party was champion of the environment. "Too often the Parklands have been seen as land on which to build," Rann said. Now he's seen delight. He'll be watching future car races at Victoria Park through the window of his new, permanent, corporate facility. The Parklands are, apparently, land on which to build.

In opposition, Rann appeared in the press and on radio active against uranium. He wrote a little book called Uranium: Play it Safe. It's a load of information about a lode he said should stay underground. Sadly, it's now out of print. Rann sponsored this year's new ALP policy to expand the number of uranium mines.

How did Mike Rann go from Don Dunstan's pro-environment staffer to SA's pro-uranium Premier? Australia has no native chameleons, that curious reptile which can change colour from green to brown. But in the upper Spencer Gulf we do have the world's most important breeding zone of the giant Australian cuttlefish, that curious cephalopod which can change colour from green to brown. Marine biologists believe the cuttlefish is threatened by a desalination plant Rann is likely to approve near Whyalla. The water is needed for uranium mining.


At the last election, Rann went to the polls with this policy: "Labor has pledged to protect and preserve our natural environments and worked in government to take our stewardship of the natural environment seriously."

There are some 200 environment-related groups in SA. They include the Wilderness Society, Conservation Council, Threatened Species Network, Bicycle Institute, Australian Conservation Foundation, People for Public Transport, Friends of the Earth, and Greenpeace. Locally, groups like the Friends of Parks fight to protect their patch of earth or, in the case of Friends of Elliston, their patch of sea.

These groups are politically neutral and would support any party which supported their policies. The environment lobby long saw the Liberal Party as its natural adversary, but the groups are not now big fans of Labor either. They once had Great Expectations for How Green is My Valley.

"Premier Rann's support of uranium expansion in SA is a cause for grave concern," says Joel Catchlove, joint winner of this year's Jill Hudson award for environmental protection.

"We're in a situation of loss in many areas," says a disappointed Conservation Council president Jane Corin. "They haven't put enough money into simple things like weed control so in the big issues like land degradation and species loss there simply aren't the finances."

"The Government is going ahead with a billion-dollar pulp mill at Penola without declaring it a major project," complains Duan Butler, of the No Pulp Mill Alliance. "Major project status would have meant an environmental impact study. That's not going to happen because Rann is simply introducing legislation to let the mill go ahead without even knowing what its effects on groundwater or pollution will be."

Bicycle-riding Greens MP Mark Parnell says: "Budget priorities on transport are still overwhelmingly focused on roads and freeways. Where's the long-term vision?"

Democrat Sandra Kanck says: "Mike Rann should be fighting to put back into the Murray-Darling the water that interstate cotton growers use. The water should support fruit, vegetables, and wine produced by SA farmers."

The Liberals' new shadow minister, Michelle Lensink, has taken to the Environment portfolio like a duck to clean water. Her work may make Liberal appear more sympathetic on environmental issues, although Prime Minister John Howard's support for old-growth logging and nuclear power will not be easy to counter.

Meanwhile, Rann's Environment Minister Gail Gago is well down in the ministerial pecking order, where the roosters like Mineral Resource Development Minister Paul Holloway, Energy Minister Pat Conlon, Treasurer Kevin Foley, and Rann himself as Minister for Economic Development rule the roost. Ministerial insiders claim Gago knows beforehand whether a particular environment protection measure will be acceptable to Rann, so many proposals supported by her department or agencies aren't formally submitted to Cabinet or Caucus. "She doesn't have the same status as Environment Minister in Cabinet that John Hill used to have," says one colleague.

In an atmosphere where standing up for the environment might be seen as sitting down for development, and where the air can apparently be cleared by talk of economic growth, Rann's conversion to pragmatism does not completely surprise the environment movement.

The word convert comes from a Latin root, to turn about or change. Were it to come from the French root, then vert would mean, as it does in English, the colour green. But as they know in the paint-making business at Kilburn, it's not all black and white


What the critics say?

We asked people who normally don't have the same media access as ministers do to rate the government's eco-performance.

The Penola pulp mill

The developer, Protavia, is planning a billion-dollar mill which will munch a million and a half tonnes of blue gums from existing and new plantations.

"A project of this size affects not just the environment," says Penola Residents and Ratepayers Association's Bill Murray. "We also need to consider the socio-economic implications for the whole community."

"One of the great aspects of this project is that this will be one of the cleanest and greenest pulp mills in Australia," Premier Mike Rann says.

"How would he know?" No Pulp Mill Alliance Duan Butler responds. "He's parroting the company line. It's not proven by an independent study with community input."

Transport

Last Thursday, Mark Parnell chaired a public meeting on transport services in the Blackwood Hills region. To his surprise, more than 60 people attended. "All the economic powerhouse cities of the world -- London, Singapore, Hong Kong, New York -- rely on public transport," Parnell said later. "Yet it's still regarded here as second choice travel."

"One of the real problems is that the services don't connect with each other," says Margaret Dingle from People for Public Transport.

"Bikes and cars don't always mix well," says Bicycle Institute of SA's Sam Powrie. "We want money for dedicated green travel corridors."

"It's time to consider extending the Noarlunga commuter line to Seaford and the Gawler line to the Barossa Valley,"

says Sandra Kanck.

Greenhouse Gas Emissions

The Government has introduced a Bill to reduce greenhouse gas, but the Liberals, Greens, and Democrats demanded changes, saying it wasn't tough enough.

"The expansion of the Olympic Dam mine at Roxby Downs is set to send our state's greenhouse gas emissions sky high," says Parnell. "In full flight, the expanded Olympic Dam site will use as much electricity as every single household in Adelaide combined.

Urban living

In Port Adelaide, a massive real estate development called Newport Quays is destroying the area's unique history. "When the developers move out, what will be left to remind us that this was once a working port?" asks Tony Kearney, chair of the local National Trust branch.

Power

The Government boasts about how much wind energy has been developed in SA, yet the Government itself has spent very little. Most of the finance is either private or has come through the Commonwealth's Mandatory Renewable Energy Target scheme.

Water

Not just the wet stuff that comes out of taps. Water management is also about coastal protection.

"Marine Parks legislation continues to be delayed, with new regulations that give marine aquaculture zones unchallengeable status. Aquaculture approvals can be granted with no rights of public notification, public comment or public appeal," says Wilderness Society campaigner Peter Owen.

Air pollution

"Our washing goes red on the clothesline," says Whyalla's Ted Kittel, who's fighting through a local action group to reduce the clouds of red dust released by the town's giant steel mill. "It gets into the kids' lungs, it's everywhere. The Environment Protection Agency was sidelined when they tried to limit emissions. We've got legalised pollution in Whyalla now."

Last word

"I have always sought to make the environment an integral part of overall government policy and strategy -- to bring it in from the margins" -- Mike Rann, writing in Time for Change; Australia in the 21st Century (Hardie Grant Books, 2006).


- Hendrik Gout

[JoanVL]

This is a great thread - very interesting stuff, but a bit of despair here.

There was a time in the UK when people had to keep veggie gardens, chooks, rabbits, and even a pig to feed their families. There was little petrol and few people had cars: horses and carts were common, and everyone used public transport, shopped locally, made stuff themselves, and bartered with each other. Local industry supplied most of their other needs. They knew about compost and manure and when to plant what. They wasted nothing, and scavenged all sorts of stuff. This was the post WWII period of rationing and shortages. All this good sustainable living came out of one thing only - necessity.

The world will be forced to recognise this necessity again, and we'll be the ones who know how to cope. More and more I find myself mentally referring back to how my Mum and Dad ( both born nearly a hundred years ago, and gone now) ran their lives.

[DirtyDave]

My Mothers Family is Maltese 8)
When I was a boy their yard had every thing in it, as you say JoanVL.
Coming to Oz from a War Ravaged Rock in the middle of the mediterranean, it was instinctive to be self sufficient,
A few years ago when I first got into growing veggies, the first thing I did unconsciously was to duplicate the things I learnt as a Boy, what actually triggered me growing veggies was, one day I wanted to make a nice hearty winter soup like my Gran used to make for us as kids, :D After wondering around several supermarkets looking for ingredients that weren't available :( I then drove down to the local nursery and decided to grow the bloody stuff myself :idea: after spending the rest of that day getting a garden ready I think I ended up getting home delivered pizza.
:wink:

A few weeks ago my mother come with me to look at some land, and after leaving a property mum says to me, You'll have to get some chooks and breed rabbits, She then went on to say that It was one her jobs on the weekends as a young girl, to help kill and prepare the chickens and rabbits for the coming meals, ( Rabbit Stew traditional Maltese Dish )
I'm 36 and thats the first time I ever heard that story,
It a shame that our modern life styles are slowly filtering out all the knowlage our Parents once relied on..

[Tezza]

Why on Earth do we just sit and wait for so many things in life???????


I think that if a person waits..Hell be allways waiting.....OR (she ( 8) :lol: )

If we wait for anyone else to do, or say something, we been waiting for,well be taking it to the grave..

Just Do It ........Yourself..only you can sort out your life,NO one else..

If we need a rain water tank..Lets bloody well go and get one..

If we want solar panels....Lets bloody get one and do it.

If we want a long healthy safe life or ourselves and OUR families.....Lets Bloody well Do It....

Permaculture................JUST DO IT

[Alex M]

You're right, Tezza, as the old saying goes, "if you want something done properly, you have to do it yourself."

Calum MacLeod waited decades for a road to be build on his Hebredian Island home, but none was forthcoming. So he bought and studied a book on roadbuilding, and took his wheelbarrow, crowbar and shovel, and for over ten years, set to work building the bloody thing himself.

His own funeral procession was among the first vehicles to use Calum's road.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calum_MacLeod_(of_Raasay)
http://www.scotland.org.uk/guide/Raasay
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Calums-Road-Rog ... 1841584479 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Calums-Road-Roger-Hutchinson/dp/product-description/1841584479)

[CarbonAtor4NewDirection]

It is up to you the people to decide whom has the best policy on tackling Climate Change. I'm constantly coming across many younger generation people you have been labor supporters but now are voting for the Greens. My only comment to them is simply to be sure that the preferences go to Labor. I believe that Liberal have shown absolutely nothing in eleven years that they are in any way friends of the earth and responsible with their measures in tackling Climate Change.

I do recommend that by voting Green you are also fully aware of Labors 10 point action plan in tackling Climate Change. This plan has great scope and delivers a fresh alternative with a glimmer of light that sees a opening to real change.

You're right, Tezza, as the old saying goes, "if you want something done properly, you have to do it yourself."
yes, I agree- to lead by example, this itself says leaps and bounds over any words including political speak.

Must say personally that the initiative shown by the Cooroy Climate Change group of locals is a leading example. It would be fantastic to see this type of initiative to spread all over Australia and be recognized by all levels of Government in power.

When Australia said no to Gordon below Franklin Dam Hydro Electricity project ;
{source}-http://www.australiannationalparks.com/tasmania/franklin/default.htm
The Franklin River blockade
The campaign to save the Franklin River, now clearly lost on political grounds, shifted emphasis, with the organisation of what was to be one of the largest acts of mass civil disobedience seen in Australia. The Franklin River Blockade, organised by the TWS under the leadership of Bob Brown, commenced on the 14 December 1982, the day the Western Tasmanian Wilderness National Parks World Heritage Area was listed. A total of 2613 people registered at the TWS headquarters in Strahan to participate in the campaign of nonviolent civil disobedience. Protesters chained themselves to gates at the HEC compound in Strahan and formed blockades in rubber duckies at Warners Landing. As boat load after boat load were arrested, new waves of protesters came to take their place. The campaign continued throughout the summer of 1982-3 and resulted in the arrest of 1272 persons. Bob Brown was imprisoned for three weeks, and many people, including internationally renowned botanist, David Bellamy, were remanded in custody.

Federal intervention
During the height of the campaign, the Tasmanian Government rejected $500 million offered by Prime Minister Malcolm Fraser to construct an alternative power scheme outside the boundaries of the World Heritage Area. Further offers by the newly-elected Labor Government under Bob Hawke were similarly turned down. Then, on 31 March 1983, the Hawke Government, which had recently been elected into office on an anti-dam platform, passed regulations forbidding HEC works within the World Heritage Area. Despite this, the HEC continued with the construction of works while the Tasmanian Governments challenge to the validity of the legislation was heard in the High Court. It was the decision of the High Court on the 1 July 1983 which, after a four to three majority ruling, prevented the damming of the Franklin River.

This showed the weight of people power and that Government being elected by the people are always accountable to them. Let this be a clear example to cast your vote this election and that I hope a conscious decision that the environment comes before economic policy.

[teela]

Tezza, I think you missed my point entirerly. What I was trying to say is it is up to the Gov to put in place some sort of guidlines and financial rewards for a environmently healthy options when building or renovating homes. As I've said before every new home built should have a decent sized rain water tank and a solar hot water service.
If my old electric hot water service should kick the bucket tommorow I'd have no choice but to replace it with another electric one as at the moment I'm skint and can't afford a solar hot water service, (they are more than twice the price of an electric unit) even though I would prefer solar.
So sure I would love to go ahead and 'just do it' as Tezza suggests but I can't, it's not that easy. If this global warming thing is as serious as they say it is then the Gov should get serious too. You make it sound like I am just looking for a Gov handout Tezza, well I'm not. When I finally move to my new home, rainwater tanks are first on the list, I will pay for them as I did here...but there are many who can only dream about affording such things..for some people a rain water tank would be like a luxury item, I mean why pay thousands of dollars to have rainwater when water comes out of their taps free everyday?
If it was the law we'd all just do it, like paying taxes or registering our cars we'd just have to so we would, but there needs to be financial help for those who can't afford it, so we can all do our bit to save the planet...rich or poor.

[CarbonAtor4NewDirection]

I have often thought that superannuation was for the future when workers retire. But what is that future with climate change ? So I would like to see super money by the superannuation industry being invested into green businesses and industry/technology. This also could be invested into other alternative measures training and education etc. If the Government gave tax break incentives to the superannuation industry so they prioritized a certain percentage of funds to (Climate Change friendly GREEN CARE industry) this could see a positive directional shift by the private sector. Our superannuation money is our money and we should have a say to responsibility placed on super fund managers. This we can say is - "A duty of Care" in legal speak that both the Government and Business must be accountable for.

Ultimately we the consumer should have affordable and more efficient Green friendly energy in our homes and business.