Water management systems.

[ho-hum]

This is a divergence from the 'retro-fit' thread and deserves a new link.

One of the things I would dearly like to see retro-fitted by way of encouraging legislation is water catchment education for all farms.

We have holistic drainage valley plans coming to the fore now this needs to be condensed to a farm by farm basis. At the moment the emphasis is on tree planting and protection which is great but we need to go farther and include dams, swales and keyline principles on cleared areas that may not be returned to full tree cover due to economic necessity.

There are inspirational characters like Peter Andrews of the Hunter Valley, P. A Yeoman's of Keyline fame and my own experience with a gentleman called Jack Edey of Karadoc near Mildura who started fighting the salinity battle of irrigation land in the 40s. Jack Edey was considered a kook for 40 years until it became grimly aware that the practise of turning the Murray River into one massive irrigation channel was doomed to failure. He was eventually recognised at one of the first Murray River forums not long before his death.

We have our own Mollison & Holmgren and their abundant relevant experience. The information is out there and should be collated and applied.

I have linked Jeremy Coleby-Williams site to this board before and found it inspirational in respect to water management -

For each 1mm fall our property receives 815 litres of rain. This means that between 22.11.03 to 19.2.06 our site has received 2,257,468.5 litres of rain.

On one suburban block!! Who says there is a water shortage - we have a storage shortage and a run-off problem, especially, on most farms.

How much of a city's budget is spent on drainage? Last time I was in Adelaide I saw a huge number of concrete creeks that had been constructed to move water from the Adelaide Hills straight through the suburbs and out to sea. This massive volume of water went straight past the backyards of people on water restrictions.

There is a special kind of madness working here that anyone with an inkling of permaculture would never understand.

If every commercial farm has to now have a fire plan and and O. H & S plan then it is high time they instituted an environmentally sound [and audited] water management plan.

floot


I do have a PS type question. Does anyone know if it is feasible to turn erosion gullies into temporary water storages, if so, what are the strategies?

[Jez]

Absolutely needs to be done Mike.

Just on those concrete drains in Adelaide...even worse than losing all that water is the fact that because it's from farming land, the large quantities of fertiliser in the water cause a massive blue green algae problem which gets flushed straight out to sea. IIRC, blue green algae is pretty toxic stuff...so not only is the water wasted, but its toxicity to the immediate coastal marine environment is increased along the journey.

I often used to walk the trip down to Glenelg when I lived in the that part of Adelaide and the path was right beside the drain a lot of the way...as soon as the weather warmed up a little the algae just went beserk.

[gnoll110]

One of the things I would dearly like to see retro-fitted by way of encouraging legislation is water catchment education for all farms.
Isn't education the first step to compulsory planning? More f*&king paper work, red tape and cost. Another overhead that big corporate outfits find it easier to swallow.



There are inspirational characters like Peter Andrews of the Hunter Valley, ...
I've heard Peter called a 'Genius Crank'. ;) Will be interesting to see how applicable Peters work is on sites the ain't as easy as the Hunter Valley.



... and my own experience with a gentleman called Jack Edey of Karadoc near Mildura who started fighting the salinity battle of irrigation land in the 40s. Jack Edey was considered a kook for 40 years until it became grimly aware that the practise of turning the Murray River into one massive irrigation channel was doomed to failure. He was eventually recognised at one of the first Murray River forums not long before his death.
Are there any Internet resources covering Jacks work?



I have linked Jeremy Coleby-Williams site to this board before and found it inspirational in respect to water management -

For each 1mm fall our property receives 815 litres of rain. This means that between 22.11.03 to 19.2.06 our site has received 2,257,468.5 litres of rain.

On one suburban block!! Who says there is a water shortage - we have a storage shortage and a run-off problem, especially, on most farms.
There is a scale issue here, 2.5ML may sound like a lot of water. It is, if you have to drink it. But when you think about it in its context (running an ecology on a small area of land for a couple of years), its not that much water.



How much of a city's budget is spent on drainage? Last time I was in Adelaide I saw a huge number of concrete creeks that had been constructed to move water from the Adelaide Hills straight through the suburbs and out to sea. This massive volume of water went straight past the backyards of people on water restrictions.

There is a special kind of madness working here that anyone with an inkling of permaculture would never understand.
Fear! Fear of flooding. We all have our own special fears. We all have our own special madnesses



If every commercial farm has to now have a fire plan and and O. H & S plan then it is high time they instituted an environmentally sound [and audited] water management plan.
Not true. The bureaucracy may want to see every farm generating this volume of paperwork (that justifies the system). Usually the farm lobby can make pollies see that it will cost jobs/generate hardship, so the laws generally pass with exemption for smaller (family based) operations.



Just on those concrete drains in Adelaide...even worse than losing all that water is the fact that because it's from farming land, the large quantities of fertiliser in the water cause a massive blue green algae problem which gets flushed straight out to sea. IIRC, blue green algae is pretty toxic stuff...so not only is the water wasted, but its toxicity to the immediate coastal marine environment is increased along the journey.

I often used to walk the trip down to Glenelg when I lived in the that part of Adelaide and the path was right beside the drain a lot of the way...as soon as the weather warmed up a little the algae just went beserk.
This is the reason why I think that any intensive farming operation should be encouraged to recycle as much water as possible, as many times as possible. The state governments have passed laws that discourage this. The logic is that this recycling decreases their revenue base by decreasing the amount of water entering public water courses. Once the water is in public water courses, it's government water and can be resold to the highest bidder.

Sadly, good environmental practise is not in the public interest.

It's the classic game we all play. How do we maximize the outcome. When does the costs of not changing meet the benefits of changing? Interestingly, it appears the Federal government now thinks that we will go through this point sometime in the foreseeable future, with regard to global warming & carbon.


The true nub of water planning is waters speed the movement through the environment. If water takes twice as long to reach the sea or evaporate/transpire, then the land will be twice wet.


Gnoll110

[MonteGoulding]

How much of a city's budget is spent on drainage? Last time I was in Adelaide I saw a huge number of concrete creeks that had been constructed to move water from the Adelaide Hills straight through the suburbs and out to sea. This massive volume of water went straight past the backyards of people on water restrictions.

Hi Floot

We live quite close to one of these drains which is what used to be the Sturt River. Our house is on what once was the flood plain. You can see the mentality of post war housing boom turning market garden land into a viable housing area by removing the flood risk. But now they are starting to work things out and have built a large and beautiful wetland to slow flow and clean the water. My wife works at a private school that backs onto another part of the drain and next time I get the ear of the principal I'll suggest a combined project between the school, the Council and state gov to install a wetland as both a feature of the school and for the other obvious benefits. Once there's a string of these projects it's a no brainer to connect them with a creek and reinforced turf bank rather than concrete.

Cheers

Monte

[ho-hum]

Monte,

I must admit I havent spent any time in Adelaide for about 15 years and community attitudes have long since moved on. So it's great to here first hand that work is being done to rectify or even just modify past attempts.

Any permaculture initiatives involving schools is excellent and to be applauded.

If anyone else on this for has adopted or been active in schools on the issue of permaculture please let us know and get the credit you are worthy of.

Congratulations monte well done.

floot

[Richard on Maui]

gnoll, I don't really follow your arguments that well. On the one hand you seem to be saying that government intervention in land and water management is wrong, on the other that nothing will change in terms of land and water management unless the bottom line is effected. So, I guess what Floot is saying is that unless farmers (and anyone else managing large amounts of land) manage their water effectively they will be fined by the govt (who in theory acts on behalf of the community) thereby effecting the bottom line. I am actually all for this proposition.
I see what you are saying regarding making things difficult for smaller farmers. The sensible approach then surely is to start with the large landholders, fine the shit out of them for not following the rules, then use that money to support the smaller landholders to implement catchment strategies.
Some things should be compulsory. Voting. Education. (if you disagree try living in a democracy like the USA :lol: ) Caring for soil & water.
Uh, 2.5 million litres of water for a suburban block for a couple of years is um, lots of water!

[ho-hum]

Richard & Gnoll,

I am all for governments leaving people alone.

The big point I was trying to make and clearly didnt - Gnoll did.


The true nub of water planning is waters speed the movement through the environment. If water takes twice as long to reach the sea or evaporate/transpire, then the land will be twice wet.


My point for suggesting 'encouraging legislation was to take the boogeyman out of it. A lot would be aimed at education for any landholder who owns more than a suburban block.

I sited JCB because I had no idea that such a small area captured so much rain and if you extrapolate that out to a farm situation and explained to farmers how to capture water and store it in the soil profile or dams just how much better off they would be. I am sure most would benefit from this type of education. The reason I suggested 'audited' was to make sure farmers had even considered this issue.

Gnoll, I do appreciate the Adelaide drains were built for flood mitigation the irony of this I have pointed out. There is also the issue of using one environmentally unsound practise [the drains] to mitigate another one - letting people build on flood plains and then have them scream blue murder for the 'government' to fix it.

cheers

floot