Mollison MP3s - 47 Hours of Listening.

[permacultureplants]

In September of 1983 I had a rare opportunity to spend two weeks at a Permaculture Design Course by Bill Mollison. It occurred to me that not everyone had such an opportunity.
In an attempt to make that course available to everyone I took professional recording equipment with me. Much editing later, I worked it into a set of audio cassette tapes.
I'm now happy to report that it is available as an MP3 set on DVD.
http://www.permacultureplants.net/Audio/frontcoverKunaki.jpg
You can hear short samples to determine the quality of sound. (The whole set is over 2500Mb, so samples will be relatively slow to download on dial-up connections.)
http://www.permacultureplants.net/Audio/audio.htm

http://www.permacultureplants.net/Audio/backcoverKunaki.jpg
Someone commented recently on this forum that Geoff Lawton listens to Mollison tapes in the car. This is the set he has.

[Tezza]

Well Done Jeff,not without time........ :lol: 8)


I have 2 of bills videos,his book,and will get back to you re getting myself a copy of your tapes,Ive heard the fire tapes,and i reckon its great with the Natural outdoor Sounds makes it more life like to say the least..


Tezza

[Richard on Maui]

It is a pretty awesome recording Tezza. I have been listening to it as I work around the place and it continues to blow my mind... The evidence part of the course is all too eerie. There's Bill in 1983 talking about climate change by the year 2000 and how weather will get more and more extreme if people don't stop poisoning the earth. He was pretty spot on, except in 1983 hardly anyone else was saying it...
I also know what you mean about the natural sound effects. As I said in an email to Jeff, you can practically smell the sulphur of Bill's matches as he lights up his ciggies. Hopefully he has quit that habit now!
I can recommend the dvd to everyone out there.
Kudos to Jeff for making it happen.

[permaculture.biz]

G'day,

Just wanted to publicly thank Jeff for making this available. Have been avidly listening to these tapes whilst travelling about all over the place. Amazing content and equally amazing to hear so many catch-cries that continue to be recanted by so many. Great material....

This kind of media would appeal to a lot of people I imagine. Especially those who are not so inclined to reading or are operating machinery all day long. I will be buying a few copies for some broadacre farming mates of mine to play whilst they are recreationally plowing with their 400hp tractors....

Good on ya!

Seasons Greetings,

Daz

[Veggie Boy]

Hi Jeff - I notice that the price of the DVD is quoted in American $. Do you also quote in $Aus or does one just get the conversion rate of the day - ie 1 Australian Dollar equal 3 American Cents :cry: .

[permacultureplants]

Yes VB you pay in Yankee Dolla.
Conversion here: http://www.xe.com/ucc/
Cheers, Jeff

Daz, thanks for kind words, Jeff

[Veggie Boy]

For some reason that annoys me - maybe because I have always been proud that permaculture originated in Australia, yet to buy Bill's word I have to pay American Dollars :-(. I know this is easy to do and that when I use my credit card it is a seamless transaction - but it annoys me all the same :?

[permacultureplants]

Hate to be the source of anyones annoyance but that's where they are manufactured. You can please some of the people some of the time but....
:cry:

If you feel that strongly though, work out what it was going to cost you and send me the cash in $Oz and I'll send you one of my copies, but make no mistake where it will have come from all the same (via Western Australia). :wink:

Cheers, Jeff

[FREE Permaculture]

it all comes at a price doesn't it?

[Richard on Maui]

You know, Chicka, I agree that it woulbed be awesome if it were freely available.
But you know what? I didn't go to the trouble and expense to get the recording equipment to Stanley, Tasmania in 1983, nor did I go to the trouble of handling reel to reel tapes or any of the editing work or the hassle of finding a company to put it on cds and distribute it.
So, it really isn't my place to decide that it should be free is it?

[FREE Permaculture]

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[Richard on Maui]

:cry: I am trying really hard not call you a bad name. :lol:

[Richard on Maui]

No seriously, I agree with your general idea, but my point is that if you want to publish something valuable about Permaculture yourself and go and put it out there for free, that is righteous and I would applaud you for it.
For you to assume the right to do the same thing with someone else's work is despicable.
I actually wrote privately to Jeff and we had a bit of a debate (that he admittedly wasn't too interested in getting drawn into - he is probably too busy working on his next publication!) where I encouraged him to think about making it free for the good of all. I asked his permission to copy the thing for friends who I know will never spend the money on it, and he politely told me he would prefer if I just gave people a few sample files and told them where they could buy the whole thing.
So, I disagree with his politics somewhat, but value his work, and so I am not going to disrespect him as much as you are prepared to.

[ho-hum]

So did BM copyright his lecture and is this recording legal. I would assume it was. If so, do part of the profits return to either BM or Permaculture [per se]?

Dont get me wrong, I am not a naysayer I just have a couple of questions.

Regards

floot

[permanut]

I have to say I'm with you Chickadee, $70 is taking the piss I reckon.
Don't get me wrong I'm trying to make money too practicing permaculture but capitilising on Permaculture and BM is taking it a bit far.
I mean I have taken recordings of the whole of 2 of my PDC's with my minidisc (from very good teachers mind) and I would'nt dream of selling them unless it was to fully recoup my costs,time etc. If there was any surplus I'd be investing it in more Permaculture works.
Permacultureplants it would haved been a lot cheaper, good EROEI if you had just made it available to people online, like us.

[Veggie Boy]

I would be happy to pay for the CD set - but having thought about it a bit since first seeing it was available, I have decided I am not willing to pay the price being asked. If Bill was the one selling it – having produced it from his own work - then I would be much more likely to pay the price - because I would be paying for Bill's intellectual property. For this same reason I was happy to pay the hundred or whatever for Joel’s aquaponics book and DVD – even though by the time I bought it I knew more than was in the book (largely from interaction on the net with Joel. Similarly I purchased Rush Wayne’s e-book on growing mushrooms, even-though it was readily available on the net, having been put there by pirates.

A bit of a story that crops into my mind:

Last year I went to some permaculture lectures - a lecture tour of Australia was being done by a group of prominent oversees aquaponics experts.

Before the lectures started - I had a chat with a few of the people that were there (as you do). Attendance was small - which was a shame cause the lectures were cheap at $100 for the day including lunch. Anyway there were 4 of us that were early arrivers and who were having this chat. There were 2 women who introduced themselves as school teacher and school lab assistant and explained how they were interested in setting up a small aquaponics system for their high school curriculum. I introduced myself explaining that I was interested in running aquaponics in my backyard as a food production system for my family (and had a small system already established). Also mentioned my long running interest in permaculture. The last person introduced himself as an 'entrepreneur' and proceeded to speak absolute shit about his visions for franchising some aquaponics venture. He had come accros the concept only a couple of weeks earlier. I disliked him instantly - though of course nodded politely at all the right times etc.

Once we got into the lectures he pulls out a video camera and asks the organiser if it would be okay for him to video tape the days events. Stupidly the organiser raised no issue - didn't even ask for a copy or anything. Turns out the guy runs a backyard video production company and obviously had thoughts of making a buck from the presenters' and organiser's hard work, knowledge and research completed over many, many years - as well as no doubt using the information to help set up his bullshit franchise.

Anyway - I know this situation is vastly different - but the story came to mind. Jeff is a genuine permaculture enthusiast (for decades clearly) and he has done the world a great service by capturing this course on tape - as opposed to this tosser I met at the aquaponics lectures who I wouldn't pay a cent for anything, out of principle if nothing else.

I just think it is a bit of a shame the DVD is not a little cheaper, because it would likely result in many more being sold and this invaluable information getting to a wider audience.

For what it is worth – I do not agree with pirating the work to Limewire or similar.

[Jez]

If I were to buy one of Jeff's DVD's, I'd merely look at it as getting good value for money when compared to a PDC cost, supporting a good person who has done a lot of great Permaculture research and even helps out here with valuable info, plus getting a recording which it would be a privilege to own considering the person who was recorded and the era it was recorded in.

Having done some research into converting from reel to reel to more modern media, it's not cheap unless you have the equipment to do it yourself (which is in itself a fair cost). Even converting from VHS to DVD of from foreign formats - professionally done - is not cheap. Like most things sold, the consumer seldom has a good understanding of the work gone into it, or the inbuilt costs in producing it for sale, or the need to cover your arse cost-wise when you're totally unsure of its saleability.

Let alone an appreciation of the fact it's even available.

IMO, the most staggering aspect of this thread, is that the lowlife thief strutting around bragging about his intention to steal the work of others, thinks that spending thousands on a structure for half a dozen chooks is money well spent, but $70 to vastly increase his knowledge of something he freely admits he has a poor understanding of (and apparently wants to learn more about considering he still hangs around - hey, it's free!), is a rip-off.

As would be the petrol/bus ticket spent to go to the library and take out a FREE copy of Permaculture: A Designers Manual. Fortunately, his computer was built for free and he pays nothing for the online access he uses to stir up as much trouble as possible whenever he feels the burning desire to make a sociopathic arsehole of himself.

[Tezza]

Im with Jez on this one

Hey Chickapee Get A Life

Tezza

[ho-hum]

Wow,

How to denigrate a lifetime's effort of enabling a perspective. Seriously, in 1983 a very forward thinker actually made a commercial decision to back his judgement. ... What is the issue now, is it whether Jeff made a smart commercial decision to save aspects of a BM speech and share it at a cost?

Or should he have just 'listened' to it and shared his 'perspective' as anecdotes?

Come on folks, this is history for we permies. You can either get from the horse's mouth or we can continue to scrabble around at chat sites.

floot

[ho-hum]

Chickadee is welcome at this site and Tezza you are not in a position to call him on it!!

Permaculture, can be, about aspiring to a perfect world. The big issue here is about Nugent's ability to capitalise on a product. The product is a speech made by Mollison.

When Nugent made these tapes he musta been really inciteful or just a lucky chancer.

Consider this, if Nugent had recorded BM on the off chance we would still care, he was either prophetic or observant. The choice is yours as is the asking price.

In a perfect world these recordings would appear as public domain. Sadly, messrs public domain were not sitting in Tassie and recorded Mollison.

<---Allow me to bitch and whine at this point but I was not there either!!

Tks Jeff for sharing the soundbytes.


floot

[FREE Permaculture]

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[FREE Permaculture]

edit

[Richard on Maui]

if no-one else will offer free pdc's then i will, i'll buy a chunk of land, do a few courses myself and offer free courses for all!

As I said before, Chicka, I fully support you to do that. I can't support you to rip off Jeff and unca Bill, however much I wish that they would put their stuff out their for free or cost.

I think that if you are going to be so rude, mate, you should have the gumption to sign your real name to your posts. Who are you, Chicka?

[FREE Permaculture]

I've just had some devastating news this morning regarding a close friend,
this issue is no longer significant to me so i've edited out my posts.

[Veggie Boy]

Sorry to hear.

[Richard on Maui]

It does take all sorts to make a world... :?

[Jez]

if no-one else will offer free pdc's then i will, i'll buy a chunk of land, do a few courses myself and offer free courses for all!

It'd be nice to have inherited enough wealth so you never have to worry about earning a living and could spend your life providing free services to one and all.

Of course, a person as fortunate as that, would have little cause to rant about $70 and determine to steal because of the cost.

If they did think they had cause, I hope they also direct their rage and tendency toward theft at nurseries, seed providers, ISP's, electricity and phone companies, food vendors, artists, and all other people in society who have the audacity to charge for a service.

I hope they also scorn the person/people they inherited their wealth from...as one would assume they actually worked to get that money...though 'scorn' would also include not accepting that inheritance.

They'd be a a classic double standard hypocrite otherwise.

[Tezza]

Just to correct some idea that i hang on to others coat tails.Well thats certainly not something that can be accepted.....but i wont waste my breath...

My argument is i suppose ....Not the :"put it up for free attitude"....
Its the way its being gone about,after all Its part of two persons lives..Uncle bill who did all the talking.And Jeff who did the taping etc etc..

If a person insists on making it "free" without "permission" or at least an Acknoweldegment of the two persons invilved... Is this moraly ok?

I agree with the idea that Permaculture be offered free ...I Myself have offered services free of charge and certain products.I love doing that.

Everthing i try to do for the good of others..no charge..

Trouble with this way of doing buissnes...is profits are virtually non exsistant.... Hence our basic need to charge a fee to "cover costs incured"

Unless a person is 100% self suficient there will allways be that need for the old bit of cash......Heaven forbid a card controld lifestyle..

If we cant earn cash instead of say apples,how do we cover expences to cover us to enable us to take the time to answer peoples questions in here.

Erning our cashies, enables us to answer all these questions that you want for nothing.....Why are you doing this? Take away our incomes,
you take away our ability to keep it low..Why shouldnt people be able to earn an income.

Tezza

[permacultureplants]

Well Chickadee seems to have done a lot of crowing and then flown the coup.
Just to put a few things into perspective:
1. I consulted with Bill before taking Professional recording equipment to his course in Tasmania in 1983.
2. Bill gets royalties for each copy sold as per our agreement in 1983, something I have never veered from.
3. My investment in this process is thousands of dollars and thousands of hours. I never imagine it will pay it's way financially but it is nice to get a little back
4. I have another 50 hours or so of Mollison tapes to digitise but this can only happen after my tape decks are serviced. More dollars to invest. time is running out because magnetic tape loses quality as it sits in the Earths magnetic field.
5. To assume that I wouldn't put surplus into funding Permaculture is ridiculous.
6. Chickadee claimed that the $70 Australian was a weeks wages in some countries. Very true, in fact in rural Kenya where I have worked it is more like 3 weeks wages. So what! There is no way a peasant in rural Kenya or the rest of the poverty stricken world is going to log on to the internet and retrieve his bootlegs of my recordings. That's a privilege only middle-class dropouts have.
7. If the likes of Chickadee in middle-class Australia wants a copy he can get off his arse, put in a days labouring and buy a copy. If he chooses not to then its fine but a day invested in all that knowledge is nothing. If he can't be bothered then he probably wouldn't get round to listening to it either.
8. The reality of uploading 2.6Gb of data onto an internet site is daunting. Do the numbers for yourself. If you're at the end of twisted copper wires like me it's about 300 hours. I know because I did it. Ok you can reduce quality (something I tried to avoid because I hate poor quality sound) but that all takes time and software. Yes you can use freeware (Audacity is a very respectable freeware program) but you've still got to stop flapping your wings and crowing about it and actually do it, then the souls at the other end have to download it again and guess who can do it - not the 3rd world but the fat cats on broadband.
9. The set is subject to copyright and the Australian Government takes exception to breeches so you might spend the rest of your time looking over your shoulder wondering if......
10. Mollison always insisted that there was a built in pre-requisite to people doing a design course. They had to be resourceful enough that they could organise the money to do the course and also create the hole in their daily lives. I feel the same is true of the audio set. Why should anyone get it for free when it cost so much to produce? "The user must pay" - Bill Mollison

If I had the oportunity to purchase a set of recordings of Bill Mollison that I didn't already have I wouldn't be humming and hurring over Oz$70 for 47 hours. For Goodness Sakes start thinking like Permaculturalists not over-pampered children.

[Tezza]

Go Jeff Go Jeff Do Jeff

Tezza

[permanut]

If I had been lucky enough to go to the BM PDC 1983 and take my own proffesional recording equipment and have recorded it, I would of obviously wanted to edit it, and preserve it as well as try and get as many people to listen to it as possible.
Now we have digital technology and it is an awsome way for people to share information. If I had owned the old reel 2 reel tape recording I'm going to want to convert it to digital format for the same reasons.
All this I would have done myself with no thought of monetary gain in my mind, only preserving it in the best format possible and sharing it -getting the message out there, and it would'nt have taken me 24 YEARS!!
I would'nt be so un-permaculture like as to send it abroad, all the way to the good 'ol USA and make everyone have to buy it from there and get it shipped out here there and everywhere (airmiles people).
What I would have done is just simply advertised on a site like this one for people to either download it directly or buy it for minimal cost in CD form.

I reckon PermaculturePlants/Jeff could've pulled his finger out and got this information out there alot more efficiantly, cost effectively and timely.
I wonder what he did with the recording all those years...I would'nt be suprised if no one but Jeff listened to it as he asked for some stupid amount of money,just for listening, even to his friends and family.
And now he wants to recoup his losses just because his old recording device is obsolete, he's taking the piss.What took thousands of dollars and thousand of hours??!!I reckon he should have give that priceless infomation to someone who knew what they were doing.I would'nt be suprised if hardly anyone buys it, and no one gets to listen to it, because of Jeff's business acumin.

I mean its the digital revolution, information can be zoomed around the globe at the touch of the button, burned onto a CD and played anywhere -they do have CD's in the third world in some places.

Permaculture should not be held back by people looking to make money, the word should be spread as quickly as possible.
I think its one thing to charge people for a PDC (according to their income) but quite another to sell a recording of someones voice.

[permaculture.biz]

G'day,

I can't believe this conversation is continuing and that Jeff is having to defend himself for doing such a sterling job for actually doing something that many people have over the years promised to do yet not delivered. Perhaps all this hype could be better served actually doing something of actual value.

The Mollison course I attended in 1995 was recorded - where is it? The 1995 Holmgren PDC was filmed - where is it? The 2005 Lawton:Mollison course was filmed - where is it? The 1983 Mollison course is out there now and its great. I've been driving to jobs, flying about, this past week doing up my old combine (ready for some dry sowing this autumn) listening away thinking "Yeah everyone should have this". Just like my combine I could have sent it out to a shop to get done up and paid perhaps less for the pleasure - but like Jeff I get a bit of enjoyment out of doing this stuff myself - just like people do up cars, grow their own food and kill their own meat...Might take a bit longer but at least we have it...

You now it really easy for people to take cheap shots, throw stones and make judgements about others. Time to stop complaining and take Bill's advice and embrace positivism.

Can we move on to perhaps discussing what the tapes contain for example....There is stuff in there that Bill didn't talk about on any of the courses I been on as a student or co-teacher. It must have been an excellent course - Would be great to get a recording of Geoff's or David's or the many other exceptional teachers out there. So much of our time doing menial work can be spent studying (except when the test cricket is on of course!).

By the way Geoff Lawton apparently has been listening to some of these recordings for years - according to the back cover of the DVD box.

Moving right along.......

Ciao,

Daz

[Jez]

If I had been lucky enough to go to the BM PDC 1983 and take my own proffesional recording equipment and have recorded it, I would of obviously wanted to edit it, and preserve it as well as try and get as many people to listen to it as possible.

Which is exactly what Jeff has done - using equipment which didn't come free, then spending more time and money later down the track converting to a more recent format (which is also much better in preserving it for all time.)



All this I would have done myself with no thought of monetary gain in my mind...

Where's the gain? Do you know how much a reel to reel cost in that era?



I would'nt be so un-permaculture like as to send it abroad, all the way to the good 'ol USA and make everyone have to buy it from there and get it shipped out here there and everywhere (airmiles people).

Yep, freight planes are leaving as we type...carrying nothing but loads of this DVD. Without that cargo, they could stay home and save all that jet fuel.



Permaculture should not be held back by people looking to make money, the word should be spread as quickly as possible.

Then why do you charge for your services Permanut?

If you could afford to spend big money on recording equipment etc, then give the result away, surely you can give the services you're charging for away as well?

-----------------------------------

This thread has been turned into an absolute disgrace to the board. I'm mortified and very upset by the fact Jeff is being attacked over this in the worst possible way and has had to waste his valuable time responding to this crap.

NOBODY who teaches and writes about Permaculture as Jeff has and does is out to make significant money from doing so - they do it because they love and believe in it, want to share that with others, and believe that the way they're going about delivering the 'message' is the best way of doing it.

At the very least, that deserves the respect and right to not be publicly attacked by other Permaculturalists. :evil:

[murray]

i believe jeff is to be commended for making *something* happen.. too few people are willing to get off their asses these days and take action.

but on the flipside, this is the free market economy and for everyone who thinks $70 is a bargain to get this information, there will be someone who thinks that the price is outrageous and will be happy to wait for the market to provide the information at a cheaper price (or wait for the info to be offered free).


Permaculture should not be held back by people looking to make money, the word should be spread as quickly as possible.

it's my experience that people don't value things they get for free.

ciao

m

[permacultureplants]

I commented to my wife yesterday that the nutters are coming out of the woodwork and as if on cue in comes permanut. Permanut does not know me or he wouldn’t be making such absurd claims. The man speaks but his lips are not moving. He is speaking from an orifice somewhat south of his mouth. To paraphrase some of his argument I think you should have got someone to write your argument who knew what they were doing.

I hate to shatter the romantic reel to reel illusion but I actually bought a state of the art (at the time) Sony Walkman Professional for a bargain price of $430. Let’s make no mistake that was a lot of money back then. The same year we had a half million gallon dam built for $500. Petrol was about 50 cents a gallon and Bill’s Permaculture Design course was $300. Airfares were around $600 return. A friend had just bought 50 acres of land for $30,000.
I used 40 X 90 minute tapes to record the lectures. Memorex pro tapes were about $15 each. I spent weeks in the city finding out the best way forward. Testing microphones was the final hurdle. I would plug in to the recorder in stores, record tests and take them home and review the sounds. Some were crap but a few shone through. I finally settled on an AKG D109 lapel microphone for $150 and an Audio Technics AT815 hand held shotgun microphone for outdoor use for another $180. I also decided that I needed a one-handed camera so I could simultaneously take photos. The photos on the cover of the DVD set were taken with an early 35mm automatic camera made by Ricoh for about $160.
When I got home with the recordings I listened to the entire set 5 times before attempting any editing.
All the time I was wondering what solution I would come up with to edit on to. After a week in the city reviewing other tape decks I came home with another Walkman Pro at the new price of $450. Believe it or not, there was a time when electronic gear got more expensive not cheaper. Two reasons for going the walkman pro for the second machine were quality and power consumption. Our entire household was coping on a single Solarex solar panel and the Walkmans used minimal power, so no generators were needed.
With the new combination I made a direct copy of the unedited masters for a fellow student who happily paid $300 for the set. That gave me a chance to perfect tape to tape with the two machines and an opportunity to listen to the set yet again. After months of editing and play back I finally made the edited set on to 30 X 90 minute Memorex master tapes. All were made using tape to tape with the 2 Walkman Pro’s.
The set was first advertised I think in 1984 in the Permaculture International Journal for $300. I know I spent more on advertising with them than I ever made from sales, but PIJ was a banner for Permaculture and I felt strongly about supporting it. I enjoyed walking into a mainstream newsagency and seeing the word Permaculture shining out. I didn’t sulk and dribble on about advertising in the journal should be free. The last set of tapes I sold in 1995 (or near then) to Geoff Lawton who also was a fellow student at the course in ’83.
In 1988 (or near then) I purchased a Sony CD burner ($550) in an external SCSI case ($120) with PCMCIA adapter ($180) to compliment my pentium 100 laptop, with the idea of creating a digitised audio set. It was so slow and laborious and required a second edit to fit onto the then 70 minute CDs, that I never pursued the process. Burning CDs in those days was at 1X speed that is it fully took 70 minutes to cook a 70 minute CD. The 30 tape set would have ended up a 40 CD set and would have been slower to produce than the tapes. What was worse was that the sound cards in those old laptops were not up to scratch so there was a loss of quality.
Last year I purchased a Neuros digital audio computer. (US$250 plus shipping) A kind of MP3/wav player/recorder wrapped around an 80Gb laptop hard disk. Just for something different, I went through the set again digitising them as I listened and occasionally removing the tape from the old case and putting it into a new case because the pressure pads on the masters had deteriorated and the resulting sound was dreadful.
Finally digitised in high quality wav format, I experimented with mp3 quality to try to reach a compromise between sound quality and file size. After much trial and error I finalised the conversion to MP3 and made the whole set available on 1 DVD, not 40 CDs as Permanut is advocating. How much would you be willing to pay for each of those CDs? US$40 is cheap. This is the way technology is going: MP3s not your tired old CDs.
I looked very carefully to try to find a manufacturer in Australia but there was nobody else that I could find on the entire planet who offered a comparable service. Given that US residents outnumber Australian residents then I reasoned there would probably be more purchases made in the US anyway (and besides air freight from the US is rediculously cheap). So far that has proven true, but Australians are much better at grizzling it seems.
I don’t believe the carry on from people who try to pose as Permaculturalists and who can’t overcome minor obstacles. I can’t afford it! It’s too expensive! Self-impoverishment at it’s extreme. Any worker would have got off their arse and raised the money. Any thinker would have ordered the DVD through their library system and got on with the learning curve. You know what, I’m glad you’re not getting a copy because I don’t think you would understand it anyway.
I agree with you Murray people don’t appreciate what they get for free. I asked a business consultant friend back in 83-4 what I should charge for a set. He asked what my goal was: for people to buy them or people to listen to them. If they’re cheap they won’t be heard; if they’re expensive they will be valued. I never charged the $600 that he suggested but I do believe that he was right.
There was a community group in Queensland who bought a set of the tapes to loan out to members. they wrote and asked my permission to make back up copies because cassette tapes are easily destroyed. I admired their honesty and resourcefulness and of course had no objection. Richard emailed me and asked how I felt about him making copies for his friends who could do with the education but would never make the effort to buy the set. My response was don’t just give it to them. Tease them with an hour or two and then make them put in the effort to get the next instalment. If they’re serious they’ll come back saying more please. If they don’t put in the effort they probably wouldn’t listen to more than an hour or two and certainly wouldn’t take the trouble to check out the notes.
I simply relate all of this story to put my perspective of the events. It was never expense that whole time for me, it was finding a solution and getting on with the job. The rewards to my own education have been enormous. Bill assures me I have the largest collection of Bill Mollison tapes on the planet and I still listen to them. Many others have also had the pleasure of doing so. Now it is available anywhere on the planet in a tiny package at an affordable price and in a form that archaelogists may well be able to decrypt.
As I have already stated, if anyone has any Mollison recordings that I don’t I will buy them at US$40 per 47 hours (the accompanying notes would be a bonus) and I would consider that I had found a bargain.

A wise man once said “By their fruits ye shall know them.” I have no idea who Freepermaculture, Chickadee and Permanut are. Quite often in forums like this the same stirrer takes on a few identities so it would not surprise me if this is the case. But lets see what exactly you guys have done for the greater good and (as the same wise man once said) “Judge not les you be judged.”

[Richard on Maui]

But its so much more romantic to imagine you in that earlier era with armloads of reel to reel tapes, packed in little tin cans... :lol:

Interesting to read the whole story though.

It is such a shame that the PIJ isn't around anymore. I suppose I should have bought a few more copies than I did instead of just reading other peoples copies!

[ho-hum]

Joel Malcolm used to post a lot here and has set up a backyard aquaponics website & service business and good luck to him too!!

This is off his site


The all inclusive kit (Book, DVD, CD, Support & Bacteria) is $185.00 (Australian) Which includes postage and packaging within Australia. To order please click the BUY NOW button below.



Joel's info was often posted here and I seriously cannot remember anyone quibbling about cost or how those prices were established.

I have paid permies for plant material with no expectation of getting it free as they mostly wanted to recoup their cost of purchase, freight etc.

Lucky we still have free will - I could chose to pay or not to pay.


cheers

floot

[Shack Living]

Personally, I feel the $70 is a bit steep. But on the flip side, I don't think it should be given away. I have considered buying it, but we are struggling to feed our livestock and set up our property (we bought 150 acres of hilly granite country covered in weeds). We also keep rare and heritage bloodlines of poultry, that will never pay for themselves, but if we got rid of them, they would be lost forever.

Had the price been closer to $30, it would be in a much more affordable zone. With a more reasonable price, you will probably find you would sell heaps more copies.

If times were better for us, I would love to be able to buy a copy. There are a lot of people around with spare cash, but we are not one of them. I will put it on my christmas list for next year. :lol: Half my pay goes into a paying off a loan we took out to buy land. :(

Permaculture is a great concept and people often make things available out of goodwill, and enjoyment of helping others in what they believe in stongly, but puting a big price tag on the mollison files does make me a feel little sad. Having to make a BIG profit margin is becoming a way of life, but in this case I feel it takes away from the success of the mollison taping.

[FREE Permaculture]

I'm back after burying a friend just to let you know i haven't forgotten this issue, was prepared to move on but since i'm still being quoted and reading the latest dribble, i'll continue...

permacultureplants, your sad and sorry walkman story is pretty lame.
so you've been selling this audio since 1984?
not really sure as you writing makes for difficult reading with no paragraphs.

hope the audio has a few breaks in it so it's not just one continuos audio track and users can jump to the next track, or keep track of where there at, but i'm sure you've covered that.

$300 in 1984 was a lot, so do you still talk to your student friend?
basically he paid for your equipment in one go.

it sounds as though you've had lots of fun keeping up with the jones's with the different sound editing technologies over the past 24 years.
how could you complain that advertising was not free in the journal when you were stinging $300 a pop? as you say, you could of built a 500,000 gallon dam for an extra 2 hunj' and then you whinge about not recouping your advertising dollar! that's because exactly what you said of the value of $300 in 1984, you could buy a whole audio set up for that price, yet you charge that price for one set?
what did you expect? hundreds of people to order?

do you realise how much it was to buy cd burning equipment in the early 90's? why didn't sony charge $2000 per music cd? after all it was about 12 million bucks to set it up!

can't you see what your saying? your saying that every time you change the format to a new one, you don't sell enough to recoup the value!
well if you had any business brains, and i see that you don't, you'd realise that it's turnover that makes money.

but if you knew that, you'd probably be wealthy enough by now to not even waste your time still flogging it after 24 years and you'd be offering it at the cost of the dvd, $1 just to get it out there Then we could could say, hey what a great bloke he is, after years of sittig in the closet, this bloke actually bit the bullet and let it out, afterall, it's not your only income is it? you do, do courses don't you? you also consult don't you, so what's the big deal?

unfortunately for you, technology has overtaken and these days are different, just ask microsoft and sony, can they stop millions of people copying their stuff? what makes you think your dvd will be never copied and shared oline?

so at the end of the day, your recouping the money to pay for your toys,
and after 24 years, your still having fun with new technologies, yet the audio is still just in your hands and a select few!
doesn't this say that your going about it the wrong way?
surely your not that silly.

Yep i agree with murray too, if it's free then it's devalued somewhat, but hey, isn't this forum free? i don't think people undervalue it's worth for spreading the permie word.

I don't hear of muzzy wuzzy asking for a dollar from everyone 'cos he spends so much time keeping it a forum and not a spam/peddlers paradise.

end of the day, it's time you old-school permies moved aside and let the new generation spread the word, it's obvious that you's haven't and still won't, even though you very well know that you'll be lucky to distribute this dvd to a few hundred people, when it should be to ten's of thousands, so the only way is for the inevitable now, technology is at everyones fingertips, the internet has changed everything.

If you can't see this then that's your problem.
doesn't matter what you do or say, people aren't that silly.

btw, thanks for making this dvd available, i'm eagerly awaiting my copy, yeah yeah, i know it's pricey, but i consider the $70 an investment for those who would never of heard this audio otherwise, seventy bucks is a small price to pay for it's freedom!

Please release me.. Let me go.......
I'm a way of life, i'm not your ho...... - permaculture.

[murray]

dude,

at the end of the day it's a free market and people are free to purchase ... or not. there's no need to make these personal attacks on ethics, writing style, motivation and business acumen.

a question - should bill mollison (http://www.tagari.com) be giving away all his information in digital form because a download "is free"?


I don't hear of muzzy wuzzy asking for a dollar from everyone 'cos he spends so much time keeping it a forum and not a spam/peddlers paradise.

actually - i have google ads running on the non-logged in version of the forum that make me about USD$40 a month.

m.

[FREE Permaculture]

Was happy to move on, i did edit my posts before too many read them :)

but since i was still being quoted i jumped back on, they had there chance to leave it, not my decision, i'm not just gonna sit and watch them continue to criticise me or my opinion when it wasn't ever there anymore!
it was the're choice in the end, so talk to them, not me.

it works both ways.. if i say it's a rip off then he say's i should get a job and pay for it or i'm talking through my arse then who's in the wrong? just me or does it work both ways?

If i complain of the price of a big mac in a forum, would I get ronald mcdonald logging on to justify his prices?
no, because ronald doesn't care about one or a few people having an opinion, he still sells lots of big macs.

bottom line is, muzz, if you think this thread is attacking him personally or anything, you have the power to just delete it and go back to the first post where he starts it and then lock it so no opinions can be added, it can just be an ad and that's that. why not just do that?

and yeah, that's great that you are making a bit on the side, so you should, your making money from big biz' paying to advertise on your site.
at no cost to us, so in the end, permaculture wins 'cos were still here for free!

you have the power muzz, delete it all or delete just the negatives, whatever.

[Veggie Boy]

Thanks for that info Jeff - puts the whole thing into perspective in my view. I don't know whether I will end up purchasing a copy at $70, but I respect your right to charge that.

Floot - I recall there was quite a lot of whinging in the early days about Joel charging for his knowledge regarding aquaponics. Some of this generates from people who just don't want to pay for stuff, but others like to know a bit more about what they are paying for before they commit - particularly when a concept is relatively foreign to them. As I said in an earlier post, I didn't buy Joel's book until after I already knew most of what was in it (and probably more). Purchasing it was paying my dues - which I am happy to do.

I am glad that I bit the bullet and decided to spend some money on Aquaponics - and I have spent quite a bit to date. I expect that if I purchase the BM DVD, I will also be glad of this. Would have to buy a MP3 player as well - so I could listen on the boring train rides to work and back :-).

BTW - I expect Joel offers a discount to forum members, perhaps a small discount by Jeff to forum members would clinch some sales, then on the other hand maybe after all the gab on this thread Jeff would like to charge forum members more :lol: .

[permaculture.biz]

G'day,

The USD$40 is quite reasonable in my book. The Permaculture Designers Manual (PDM) is now something like AUD$130 retail. A PDC is something like AUD$1000-1500 these days. The 70 odd student Mollison:Lawton course is $1500 plus GST and is non-residential with a cut lunch, a cuppa and some bikkies that is going on as we speak.....

Perspective is required here and a good dose of manners above all else. Some of the language used has been quite unnecessary to say the least....

There are market prices for things - if Jeff wants to discount things then that is up to him - just like it is up to Tagari to discount the price of the PDM for bulk purchases or to retailers. Geoff Lawton and I discount our course rates for some convenors as appropriate. I discount my consultancy rates all of the time to help people out. But that is up to me and is what my business can bear as I get paid well by some. The same for Jeff Nugent and for Joel Malcolm now that he has been drawn into this crazy little sortie.

Given the lines are well and truly drawn and we know each others opinions can we move on to not waste any more time on posturing and negative crap and perhaps move to talking about something else regarding this work - certainly not a good advertisement for this wonderful site and a definite waste of oxygen and bandwidth.

I am now going to start a new thread that restarts the conversation with regards the content of this, in my view, important release....

Ciao,

Darren Doherty

(sans nom de plume)

[Richard on Maui]

Darren,
Perhaps you have a vested interest in wanting to prevent further discussion of this particular subject?
We will often disagree with one another about a lot of things, especially regarding ethics, and it is precisely those things that we need dialogue about, in my humble opinion.
I don't think it is all that constructive to label a point of view as negative and irrelevant and demand that it be swept under the rug. Nothing to see here!
I disagree with some of what these people have said, but to some degree I would uphold their general point of view. I think there are a diverse range of opinions on the matter here on this forum and in the Permaculture community at large.
:D
Richard

[Richard on Maui]

I am all for a discussion of the content of the cd though. :D Where is the thread?

[Richard on Maui]

Oh okay, I found it!

[permaculture.biz]

G'day,

Richard,

First up I have no vested interest and for anyone who knows me I would know that I would declare this from the outset - quite frankly I'm quite surprised and somewhat taken aback by that comment. I've never met Jeff and have only talked to him thru this forum and we swapped some seeds some years back.

Secondly what has got me sucked into this (and I usually resist the bait) is that in my opinion this discourse (for want of a better word) is leaving a bad taste all round and that's its by nature a waste of energy. I am not adversarial by nature and find it difficult personally to appreciate this characteristic of people in general life, though I agree with you that different strokes for different folks etc.

Thirdly, It is not my position to say or demand what or who should be spoken about or speak - merely to myself express the view that this discussion has vanquished to the point of being unnecessarily rude and disrespectful of the actualised efforts of people like Jeff, which are considerably more than most....

So to take my own advice I will move on myself, acknowledge your comments for their substance and respectfully withdraw from this thread.

Thanks,

Ciao,

Darren Doherty

[Shack Living]

2. Bill gets royalties for each copy sold as per our agreement in 1983, something I have never veered from.

I know its none of my business, but I can't help but wonder what goes into bills pocket for each copy sold? especially given that the agreement was a long time ago. :? :)

[Veggie Boy]

That's a bit of a personal question.

[Richard on Maui]

Just to clarify, the vested interest I referred to with Darren was that he is a teacher and a consultant, so I meant it in a general way, rather than that he was connected to Permaculture Plants. I have explained this to him privately and I hope there is no animosity. Just expressing a viewpoint! Not trying to create or perpetuate any schisms or rifts!

[permacultureplants]

2. Bill gets royalties for each copy sold as per our agreement in 1983, something I have never veered from.

I know its none of my business, but I can't help but wonder what goes into bills pocket for each copy sold? especially given that the agreement was a long time ago. :? :)
Bill gets paid author's royalties which is expressed as a percentage of retail, exactly the same as publishers pay their authors royalties. The only thing that has changed from now to then is the retail value of the audio set, which is much cheaper and the dollar is not worth as much. Bill set the percentage in the first place and I agreed. The percentage is between Bill, me and the Taxation Department.

[permaculture.biz]

G'day,

For the record I hold no animose or grudges.....Any student of geology understands the futility of such wastes of energy in spite of it all....

Funny when I first went to Viet Nam I asked a former Viet Cong soldier, now Biotechnology Professor, if he held any grudge towards the Americans - he said only against Kennedy, Nixon, Kissinger and MacNamara! I lost my father (when I was an infant) in that conflict and believe me you've gotta get over it - no matter how large it is - wars start that way....

Holy schism Batman!

Ciao,

Darren J. Doherty

[Richard on Maui]

:D

[ho-hum]

To clear the record, I asked about royalties etc. It was never aimed at 'tripping' anyone up. It was all about 'insight'. My first contact with 'Mollison' was in about 1989 when I 'paid good money', ie, my time, and let 2 staff members and a lotta students attend a Permie Course that ran from a Skillshare Project I was president of.

Most people operate off a profit motive. I believe that makes you a 'worker', I have never operated off those confines, which makes me an 'employer' or 'sharer'.

If we Permies all belonged to the 'teaching' class or the 'worker' class or like me, in the 'exploiter' class, it would be a narrowly deliniated and sad world.

So, like Jeff, should I use my skills and foresight to enthuse folk or even employ people. Or should I be like them?

floot

[Susan]

Jeff,
Since I recieved my copy I have been avidly listening.
I love the facts and figures even if they are out of date they have given me much to research.
Thankyou
Susan

[GeoffandNadiaLawton]

Thank you Jeff
you have done a great job.

It is a fantastic piece of work.

Real people like yourself do the kind of work that actually does get a result.

You deserve all the the cedit and we know the Bill Mollison fully supports you.

Keeo up the great work.

Cheers Geoff and Nadia Lawton