Alert for Frosty - Watch SBS July 13

[heuristics]

Not only Frosty, of course - many of us will be interested in this one:

SBS TV

08:30 pm STORYLINE AUSTRALIA - DIRTY WAR (Eastern States schedule)
Since 9/11, the US wants to establish more bases in more countries as a key strategy in its ‘War on Terror'. Meanwhile a global toxic horror story is emerging from those living near present and past bases in the US and overseas. 14-year-old Erwinjohn Tuazon has just come out of a course of chemotherapy. He is one of many childhood leukaemia cases recorded in the close vicinity of the former bases at Clark and Subic in the Philippines. Proper treatment is way beyond the means of most families where the average daily income is five dollars a day. As far as the doctors are concerned, there's nothing more that can be done for Erwinjohn. The US has around 2000 bases in 140 countries worldwide. Military bases are places of major industrial operations – testing and use of munitions, fuelling, paint-stripping, tank-flushing, all using a lethal cocktail of toxic substances including heavy metals, dioxins, and PCB's. Against a geo-political backdrop of war, terrorism, and shifting global alliances Dirty War is the story of a David and Goliath struggle between a group of poisoned Filipino peasants and allegedly one of the largest and certainly most powerful polluters on the planet – the US military. (Commissioned by SBS Independent, in English and Tagalog, English subtitles) G CC WS
SMS Alert Code: 0447

[frosty]

thanks heuristic

I did already know ...... and by the program I think it may be on at 11.30 ( well here in WA ) due to the cycling

I know the film's maker Alan Carter ...... he got the idea after attending our first public meeting to oppose seaswap in fremantle in Dec 2002

the first place he visited when he started research was here (Lancelin ) but in the end he didnt come back and film here ....... there isnt much to see here yet and seems we are sort of unoffical with the yanks :lol: they have only announced they will use Shoalwater and Bradshaw ....... I guess bombing in such a small range so close to a capital city is not good PR <rolleyes>

regards
frosty

[Tezza]

Yankies Stay Home

Tezza

[Richard on Maui]

Yeah! 8)

[Jim Bob]

War is bad for the environment.

I'd never have guessed it! 8)

- Jim Bob, former infantryman

[spritegal]

Can't they just poison their own citizens first and then work on poisoning the rest of the world? How very rude of them.

Don't most Americans believe there is no "world" outside their own 52 states...or should that be 53 (the last one being Australia).

No wonder I'm moving overseas at the end of next year....its a very sad state of affairs for Australia.

[Tezza]

good one jim bob

Tezza

[soldierturnedfarmer]

When I was in the Australian army, there were talks of an American base being set up in Australia. Clearly it has its advantages and disadvantages. I think it would be a good idea if it was in the middle of nowhere and was monitored by the EPA and other enviromental agencies.

STF

[Richard on Maui]

I think it would be a good idea if it were in the middle of the United States and it was monitored by the EPA and it was only allowed to do creative stuff like clean up environmental messes and no destructive stuff like playing with guns and bombs etc. :D

[heuristics]

Enjoy your OS trip Spritegal, but I dont know how successful you will be in eluding the influence of the US (military).
I think we would have to arm wrestle Britain for the title of 51st state.... And Japan thinks THEY are the next state in line behind the official 50... so despite our Lil Johnny poncing around as a Deputy Sherrif in the Pacific, I dont know we rate as first in line on the arse-licking queue as we imagine.

And military base speaking - dont forget Germany. There is a HUGE presence there.

Read "Blowback"by Chalmers Johnson for a glimpse into the US activites in Okinawa Japan post WW2 to present, and other places across SEAsia.

And dont forget the banner that made Dick Smith gag: "The United States Welcomes You to the South Pole".... ie. the same South Pole Aussies explored and pioneered. Smithy found a HUGE military base down there when he went off on one of his adventures... and they were none too hospitable when he got into difficulties....

[heuristics]

I just want to add something... I have noticed in the last little while we have been joined by a few more or our permie colleagues in US, who have joined the ones we already have contributing to this board.

I just want to say, just from me personally, these harsh comments are NOT directed at you as individuals..... I know from my own bitter personal experience I have not been able to effect the kind of influence on MY governments - national, state or local, the way I would like...
There is SO MUCH I dont agree with in regard to OZ govt... and I wouldn't like to have people think, because I am an Australian, I agree and endorse everything what "my"govenment does...
Which leads us back to what we all have in common - a hope/belief that permaculture will offer a solution to the bankcrupt environmental practices of govts and corporations and individuals everywhere...

[Tezza]

Here Let Me PUBLICLY agree with Heuristics


I agree with the fact that I dont class Normal Citizens the same way as their Politicle Leaders..........I have relatives in the USA,and although I may Knock the Yanks I only mean the Leaders............BUT...If thay act as their leaders
well thats fair game to me...

I like calling Spades Spades


Tezza

[frosty]

I too agree I have lots of American friends - fellow activists and people like us fighting against pollution from military activities ........ they work very hard in situations that are extremely difficult ..... they have my admiration and support

but like tezza I also say those that support the US invasion of other countries be it to spread their dirty polluting training on some one elses soil or their actual occupations have my absolute contemp ........

and heuristis the japanese situation is not what it seems ....... while the japanese govt may suck up to the US like ours does the people do NOT support the US presence

as this article shows


The Pearl of Henoko
by julian aguon
this article ran in the Marianas Variety, Guam, on July 3, 2006.





Two years ago this November, the power of the people went head to head with the governments of two of the most affluent countries in the world. On the afternoon of November 16, 2004, Okinawan activists aboard small boats and canoes set out to stop the 500-ton crane vessel commissioned by the central government to begin drilling of the sea bottom in the water off Henoko village for the construction of yet another US military base. Risking life and limb in what has become a tired scene. Tiny Okinawa takes on manic mainland Japan and master (the US).



Here's the skinny: the partner governments of Japan and the US plan to landfill the sea off Henoko, in eastern Okinawa, to build an airbase with a full runway estimated at 2500 meters long and 730 meters wide. According to Okinawan writer Yui Akiko, preliminary drilling demarcated 63 points at sea bottom inside and outside the coral reefs. Two years and a lot of sacrifice later, the people are still managing to hold back the Naha Defense Facilities Administration Bureau (NDFAB), the local arm charged to begin boring the sea floor.



In all of this, it is the elderly at the center of the struggle. Grandmothers and grandfathers dive in front of state-sponsored ships, driving them back. Seventy, eighty and ninety year olds shaming the state with a power beyond power lead the sit-ins and hunger strikes and human blockades in and out of the water. Their courage has moved the coastline. Down at the pier, fishermen from the north and south of Henoko have joined them. Their determination turned back the NDFAB thirty two times in a period of five months.



An unlikely allay has surfaced since then. The Okinawa dugong, a genetically isolated group of the saltwater manatee that feeds on seaweed in Henoko waters, has given them grounds to take their case to court. Using the US Endangered Species Act and the National Historic Preservation Act, civil groups for the protection of the dugong filed a lawsuit against Donald Rumsfeld in his official capacity as the Secretary of Defense and the US Department of Defense, for reckless endangerment of the rare mammal. The jury is still out.



Having recently visited Henoko, I got a glimpse of this sea that moves these old folks. Its majesty, hidden and deep, has sustained the people of that village and surrounding ones for generations. Especially after the resources of the land were taken and turned into the military training grounds of Camp Schwab. This is why they are prepared to protect the sea at any cost. They are old enough to remember how, after the last world war, the US military seized large tracts of land from farmers and stripped them of their long agrarian society, making it virtually impossible to find work outside its bases.



Contrary to mainstream media messages, the plan to build this base is not new. According to the Okinawa Environmental Network, a former Ryukyu University professor discovered a document in the Okinawa Prefectural Archives revealing how the US has planned to build a base at Henoko since 1966. The document listed Henoko among those sites surveyed by the defense department at the height of the Vietnam War. According to this document, the US Marine Corps had prepared the Henoko airbase's landfill design in January of that year.



The latest propaganda piece in the state arsenal is that the new offshore base at Henoko marks the fulfillment of a long-held hope of the people, who have for years called for the closure of another base in the center of Okinawa - Futenma. But the trick, in the end, was too cheap. These grandparents know better than to let their outrage over one base cloud their judgment of another.



In the end, there is a great lesson to take from Henoko. A pearl in the oyster of their experience:



Taking on Empire doesn't take extraordinary folk. Only extraordinary resolve.


frosty

[9anda1f]

Thanks Heuristics! Not all of us yanks follow our government blindly and work to help keep everyone's eyes wide-open. Heres yet another example of war's pollution...this time in the middle east:

http://www.bushflash.com/swf/silentscream.swf

Makes me want to cry...

9anda1f

[Tezza]

:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

God Help US ALL

Tezza

[soldierturnedfarmer]

I too agree I have lots of American friends - fellow activists and people like us fighting against pollution from military activities ........ they work very hard in situations that are extremely difficult ..... they have my admiration and support

but like tezza I also say those that support the US invasion of other countries be it to spread their dirty polluting training on some one elses soil or their actual occupations have my absolute contemp ........

and heuristis the japanese situation is not what it seems ....... while the japanese govt may suck up to the US like ours does the people do NOT support the US presence

as this article shows


The Pearl of Henoko
by julian aguon
this article ran in the Marianas Variety, Guam, on July 3, 2006.





Two years ago this November, the power of the people went head to head with the governments of two of the most affluent countries in the world. On the afternoon of November 16, 2004, Okinawan activists aboard small boats and canoes set out to stop the 500-ton crane vessel commissioned by the central government to begin drilling of the sea bottom in the water off Henoko village for the construction of yet another US military base. Risking life and limb in what has become a tired scene. Tiny Okinawa takes on manic mainland Japan and master (the US).



Here's the skinny: the partner governments of Japan and the US plan to landfill the sea off Henoko, in eastern Okinawa, to build an airbase with a full runway estimated at 2500 meters long and 730 meters wide. According to Okinawan writer Yui Akiko, preliminary drilling demarcated 63 points at sea bottom inside and outside the coral reefs. Two years and a lot of sacrifice later, the people are still managing to hold back the Naha Defense Facilities Administration Bureau (NDFAB), the local arm charged to begin boring the sea floor.



In all of this, it is the elderly at the center of the struggle. Grandmothers and grandfathers dive in front of state-sponsored ships, driving them back. Seventy, eighty and ninety year olds shaming the state with a power beyond power lead the sit-ins and hunger strikes and human blockades in and out of the water. Their courage has moved the coastline. Down at the pier, fishermen from the north and south of Henoko have joined them. Their determination turned back the NDFAB thirty two times in a period of five months.



An unlikely allay has surfaced since then. The Okinawa dugong, a genetically isolated group of the saltwater manatee that feeds on seaweed in Henoko waters, has given them grounds to take their case to court. Using the US Endangered Species Act and the National Historic Preservation Act, civil groups for the protection of the dugong filed a lawsuit against Donald Rumsfeld in his official capacity as the Secretary of Defense and the US Department of Defense, for reckless endangerment of the rare mammal. The jury is still out.



Having recently visited Henoko, I got a glimpse of this sea that moves these old folks. Its majesty, hidden and deep, has sustained the people of that village and surrounding ones for generations. Especially after the resources of the land were taken and turned into the military training grounds of Camp Schwab. This is why they are prepared to protect the sea at any cost. They are old enough to remember how, after the last world war, the US military seized large tracts of land from farmers and stripped them of their long agrarian society, making it virtually impossible to find work outside its bases.



Contrary to mainstream media messages, the plan to build this base is not new. According to the Okinawa Environmental Network, a former Ryukyu University professor discovered a document in the Okinawa Prefectural Archives revealing how the US has planned to build a base at Henoko since 1966. The document listed Henoko among those sites surveyed by the defense department at the height of the Vietnam War. According to this document, the US Marine Corps had prepared the Henoko airbase's landfill design in January of that year.



The latest propaganda piece in the state arsenal is that the new offshore base at Henoko marks the fulfillment of a long-held hope of the people, who have for years called for the closure of another base in the center of Okinawa - Futenma. But the trick, in the end, was too cheap. These grandparents know better than to let their outrage over one base cloud their judgment of another.



In the end, there is a great lesson to take from Henoko. A pearl in the oyster of their experience:



Taking on Empire doesn't take extraordinary folk. Only extraordinary resolve.


frosty

I'll admit that in the past, there have been huge mistakes make with regards to the military's attitude to the enviroment. I can only speak from my experiance in the Australian army about this. Now days, enviromental protection is taken very seriously within our military and though they have a long way to go, it is a step in the right direction. Take into consideration for example the Shoalwater Bay training area located near Rockhampton. That particular military training ground now has some very good enviromental prevention and protection activities going on in its juristiction. No longer is the old bash and bury your rubbish to conceal it from the enemy actively encouraged, now a soldier must carry their rubbish with them until a resupply where the quarter master takes the rubbish and disposes of it properly.

As for the occupation of foreign territories in a warlike situation, as a former soldier I do not glorify or encourage war. However, sometimes unfortunate as it is, it is necessary to take action in a military fashion.
As for our own government, well possibly more credit should be given to them, we don't always back America blindly. For example, many Australians wonder what we are doing in Iraq. I served over there in 2003, when the invasion was still on and my main duties included defending and building the Australian embassey and the surrounding buildings into a defensive position. We also were responsible for protecting the Australian ambassador and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade staff. They're job was to negotiate new deals with the Iraqi interim government and establish relations between our country and theirs. We didn't do much in the grand scheme of things with the war and helping the Americans. If they needed assistance and we were in the area, we helped out but we didn't actively go looking for trouble/action. If it came to us, we were prepared but what I am getting at is we were there mainly for Australian interests in my opinion. Many people in Australia don't understand this, I also get the craps with people who give me crap about the service I gave to my country, then again normally these people are morons and their opinion doesn't really bother me.

I guess its just that the general public isn't eductated in what we do over there and other places. You might remember the 50 000 sheep that were sitting in their own faeces in a ship off the gulf coast after the deal fell through. Who do you think renegotiated that deal? Thats right the DFAT team in Iraq.


STF

[Tezza]

Hiya Soldier.. Let me Publicly thank you for putting your Life on the line.

Let me publicly thank all the Soldiers who have fought and died to give me/us this wonderfull life i/we now. Thank you.

Every Year we get to say Lest We Forget......

Every year I Say Sorry.......Sorry to those who gave their lives,and Sorry to those who currently offer their super valuable lives every day of the year..

For What?Sorry because we still havent learnt our lessons,Sorry for putting you in the firing line again.Sorry for sending you over seas so you can die in some far flung place,Sorry for exposing you to D. U. and Agent Orange,
Sorry for not looking after you after you return.

Lastly but by no means completly.

Im sorry for allowing my Political leaders to put you there in the first Place.. even though my party of choice have abolished war..

A lot of good innocent people die during war...

If we must have Soldiers lets just have for self defence. Non overseas


Thanks

Tezza

As a famous Liverpudlian once said....Give Ireland Back To The Irish

Lets Give The World Its World Back. Lets bring Everyone home "Everyone"

[soldierturnedfarmer]

Hiya Soldier.. Let me Publicly thank you for putting your Life on the line.

Let me publicly thank all the Soldiers who have fought and died to give me/us this wonderfull life i/we now. Thank you.

Every Year we get to say Lest We Forget......

Every year I Say Sorry.......Sorry to those who gave their lives,and Sorry to those who currently offer their super valuable lives every day of the year..

For What?Sorry because we still havent learnt our lessons,Sorry for putting you in the firing line again.Sorry for sending you over seas so you can die in some far flung place,Sorry for exposing you to D. U. and Agent Orange,
Sorry for not looking after you after you return.

Lastly but by no means completly.

Im sorry for allowing my Political leaders to put you there in the first Place.. even though my party of choice have abolished war..

A lot of good innocent people die during war...

If we must have Soldiers lets just have for self defence. Non overseas


Thanks

Tezza

As a famous Liverpudlian once said....Give Ireland Back To The Irish

Lets Give The World Its World Back. Lets bring Everyone home "Everyone"

Tezza,
thanks for the thanks but there is no need to much as I appreciate it.
I volunteered to join the army, I wasn't conscripted to join like my father and uncle. I was 17 and keen for adventure so I joined the infantry and later progressed to other simular but advanced areas much to the dismay of my mother. lol 8)

There is a saying, All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing or words to that effect. The Australian Defence Force is a defence force but we still need to go overseas sometimes to protect our interests. The best cure is prevention and if we can nip in the bud before we are fighting in the streets here.

Unfortunately pacifism is not an option. Ideally it would be however not everyone agrees with it in this imperfect world and also this creates an uneven playing field that people ie an enemy would exploit.

I do agree with your statement about soldiers not being looked after when they return. Our veterans affairs system needs a HUGE overhaul in my opinion. The lack of support is literally disgusting but anyway I won't have a rant on here about that :lol: .

I am not sure what D.U is but I wasn't in Vietnam for Agent Orange, the only "warlike" and I use the term loosely operations I went on was East Timor and Iraq. I did a tour of Vietnam once but it was through contiki so I didn't get any gongs for that. :P

STF

[frosty]

I'll admit that in the past, there have been huge mistakes make with regards to the military's attitude to the enviroment. I can only speak from my experiance in the Australian army about this. Now days, enviromental protection is taken very seriously within our military and though they have a long way to go, it is a step in the right direction.

the militarys talk about environmental protection is ALL talk ...... you are spreading the propaganda line to the wrong person I live right next to lancelin DTA in WA ....... and here they are trashing the whole environment and ou health along with it I attend their meetings where they outright lie and try and convince us of the above propaganda so I know the real story



Take into consideration for example the Shoalwater Bay training area located near Rockhampton. That particular military training ground now has some very good enviromental prevention and protection activities going on in its juristiction. No longer is the old bash and bury your rubbish to conceal it from the enemy actively encouraged, now a soldier must carry their rubbish with them until a resupply where the quarter master takes the rubbish and disposes of it properly.

so they carry out their rubbish on one hand and destroy the pristine environment on the other

at lancelin they have a sign near the gate that says "do not litter " :lol: so its alright to kill but not litter

I suggest you should see David Bradbury's documentary "blowin in the wind " there is a lo about shoalwater and aslso about the local residents who had a deformed child due to military pollution

http://www.bsharp.net.au

[quot]As for the occupation of foreign territories in a warlike situation, as a former soldier I do not glorify or encourage war. However, sometimes unfortunate as it is, it is necessary to take action in a military fashion.
As for our own government, well possibly more credit should be given to them, we don't always back America blindly. For example, many Australians wonder what we are doing in Iraq. I served over there in 2003, when the invasion was still on and my main duties included defending and building the Australian embassey and the surrounding buildings into a defensive position. We also were responsible for protecting the Australian ambassador and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade staff. They're job was to negotiate new deals with the Iraqi interim government and establish relations between our country and theirs. We didn't do much in the grand scheme of things with the war and helping the Americans. If they needed assistance and we were in the area, we helped out but we didn't actively go looking for trouble/action. If it came to us, we were prepared but what I am getting at is we were there mainly for Australian interests in my opinion. Many people in Australia don't understand this, I also get the craps with people who give me crap about the service I gave to my country, then again normally these people are morons and their opinion doesn't really bother me.
[/quote]

so you call me a moron and you just arrived :evil: I dont suppose I should expect anything different from a trained killer

BTW a good friend of mine was in Iraq too as a human shield - that took real courage



I guess its just that the general public isn't eductated in what we do over there and other places.

mmmmmm I think you need the education mate ........ by your post to tezza you really should find out what DU is because you have been exposed to it and it will probably kill you eventually .......

it is the US weapon of genocide used in Iraq and probably in most aussie training areas

it will probably kill us all

frosty

[heuristics]

Hiya STF - welcome, like Cornie said in the other post - lots of really knowledgeable people on board here - but I am not one of them either!!!

Tezza - that last post of yours was one of your absolute best - I agree with you so whole-heartedly, I too am sorry we have learnt nothing and still send young men to war.

SFT - I appreciate you have a different perspective - as you say, you signed on, not conscripted... your choice... but what makes me proud, and what I'd rather seen is Aussie troops doing humanitarian duties in Indonesia after the tsunami or in Pakistan after the earthquake or helping people in whatever part of the world needs it... that kind of tour of duty still leaves plenty of scope for adventure for 17 year olds like yourself ..... the Anzacs went off to Turkey 1915 desperate for adventure .... it's a long tradition..... .

DU means depleted uranium. google it.
If I can be so presumptuous, you need to inform yourself about this and any health implications. Agent orange was kiddies cordial compared to this stuff. Iraq is doused top to bottom with DU. That's what makes the bunker busting bombs bust bunkers - they are mini nuclear bombs - but that's an explanation from a civilian - the military will have another whole way to explain it.
I did a lot of on-line research into DU in 04/05. I was out of the office for a few hours one day and came back and IT had replaced my computer.
- NO, not a conspiracy, just "stuff happens". But I lost all my DU files that were on my "favourites", but I got it all from just googling Depleted uranium.

I sincerely absolutely hope your health has not been compromised - but if you are googled up on DU, you'll know what symptoms to monitor yourself for.

[Tezza]

8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

"Dont Litter"

A practise battlefield Wonder if signs warning "NOT to spill blood"
Tezza

[Douglas J.E. Barnes]

On the war started in 2003, the UN Charter is clear. Australia is also signatory to The General Treaty for the Renunciation of War, AKA the Kellogg-Briand Pact of 1928. Regarding "huge mistakes" made, one of them certainly was participation in that war of aggression which, as the Nuremburg Judgement correctly points out, "is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole." No "opinion" there - just a simple statement of fact.

[frosty]

just another thought for soldier

make sure you watch Dirty war ....... it may help you wake up to the BS you have been fed to see how military activities have led to little children dying in the Philippines ....... young lives ended before they begin so the US can rule the world

its the same in Vieques puerto rico ( it is also probably in Alan's film I know he went there ) 70% of the population have sickness there is no ijdustry or anything else that could cause it except the military training.... there is hardly a family that that hasnt had at least 1 death many of them childr3n

and it is starting here 2 people in my street have cancers of the type caused by military activities - but of course it will never be admitted


this is the REAL death toll of militarism and it is much higher than any official figures of war deaths

and they are ALL innocent civilians

the poet shelley said

Man has no right to kill his brother. It is no excuse that he does so in uniform: he only adds the infamy of servitude to the crime of murder."


sorry but you have been brainwashed

and you may turn into a farmer but until you learn to value ALL life IMHO you wont ever be a permie

frosty
pacifist scumbag :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: oh and I forgot moron :lol: :lol: :lol:

PS heuristsics I will post some independant DU links later

[frosty]

independant info about DU

http://www.umrc.net/

http://www.axisoflogic.com/cgi-bin/exec ... &printer=1 (http://www.axisoflogic.com/cgi-bin/exec/view.pl?archive=129&num=17578&printer=1)


http://www.life.com/Life/essay/gulfwar/gulf01.html

[Richard on Maui]

Soldier, I am glad that you are now a farmer. You know, your saying about good men doing nothing makes sense, but then, what about, "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."
pacifism is actually the only option if you truly want peace. there is no way to peace, peace is the way...

[soldierturnedfarmer]

I'll admit that in the past, there have been huge mistakes make with regards to the military's attitude to the enviroment. I can only speak from my experiance in the Australian army about this. Now days, enviromental protection is taken very seriously within our military and though they have a long way to go, it is a step in the right direction.

the militarys talk about environmental protection is ALL talk ...... you are spreading the propaganda line to the wrong person I live right next to lancelin DTA in WA ....... and here they are trashing the whole environment and ou health along with it I attend their meetings where they outright lie and try and convince us of the above propaganda so I know the real story



Take into consideration for example the Shoalwater Bay training area located near Rockhampton. That particular military training ground now has some very good enviromental prevention and protection activities going on in its juristiction. No longer is the old bash and bury your rubbish to conceal it from the enemy actively encouraged, now a soldier must carry their rubbish with them until a resupply where the quarter master takes the rubbish and disposes of it properly.

so they carry out their rubbish on one hand and destroy the pristine environment on the other

at lancelin they have a sign near the gate that says "do not litter " :lol: so its alright to kill but not litter

I suggest you should see David Bradbury's documentary "blowin in the wind " there is a lo about shoalwater and aslso about the local residents who had a deformed child due to military pollution

http://www.bsharp.net.au

[quot]As for the occupation of foreign territories in a warlike situation, as a former soldier I do not glorify or encourage war. However, sometimes unfortunate as it is, it is necessary to take action in a military fashion.
As for our own government, well possibly more credit should be given to them, we don't always back America blindly. For example, many Australians wonder what we are doing in Iraq. I served over there in 2003, when the invasion was still on and my main duties included defending and building the Australian embassey and the surrounding buildings into a defensive position. We also were responsible for protecting the Australian ambassador and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade staff. They're job was to negotiate new deals with the Iraqi interim government and establish relations between our country and theirs. We didn't do much in the grand scheme of things with the war and helping the Americans. If they needed assistance and we were in the area, we helped out but we didn't actively go looking for trouble/action. If it came to us, we were prepared but what I am getting at is we were there mainly for Australian interests in my opinion. Many people in Australia don't understand this, I also get the craps with people who give me crap about the service I gave to my country, then again normally these people are morons and their opinion doesn't really bother me.


so you call me a moron and you just arrived :evil: I dont suppose I should expect anything different from a trained killer

BTW a good friend of mine was in Iraq too as a human shield - that took real courage



I guess its just that the general public isn't eductated in what we do over there and other places.

mmmmmm I think you need the education mate ........ by your post to tezza you really should find out what DU is because you have been exposed to it and it will probably kill you eventually .......

it is the US weapon of genocide used in Iraq and probably in most aussie training areas

it will probably kill us all

frosty[/quote]

Frosty,
first of all, my appologies if you believe that I was referring to you as a moron. That was not the case at all, if you read my post I am not actually directing it at you however I admit I could have clarified it better. The people I am talking about were people who directly attacked me. For example, I had some moron try to rip my medals off on Anzac day or more specifically my fathers medals on the right side of my chest. We had the funeral for my dad the day before Anzac day this year so as you can probably understand I was distort still. So as you can probably imagine, that bloke got a good old fashioned clip around the ear, I did try to explain to him before that my medals were over my heart and on the right side is your relatives. However he kept trying to grab my dads medals and ended up ripping my suit and had me cornered in the bar so I couldn't walk away. He was highly intoxicated but he was in his late thirties so he should have known better, I am only in my mid twenties and I know to give people respect and courtesy and benefit of the doubt.

Another time we were marching in a welcome home parade from East Timor when some uni students shovelled horse manure directly onto our path where we were marching. The soldiers broke ranks and ran in and punched on, to me this was idiotic though I can see why they did it. It bought disgrace upon ourselves, our unit and our country however everyone including the media tended to forget the fact that horse crap was shovelled on the road directly infront of us indicating severe disrespect and lack of understanding on what a soldier goes through.

Like I said earlier, the ADF has a long way to go with regards to enviromental protection however the standard certainly is higher then in the 1980's. My advice would be to rally your local member and make sure that they keep to their promises. The ADF does have a lot of yes sir, no sir lip service men and women in its ranks and this needs to be fixed.

Soldiering isn't all about being as you eloquently put it a quote "trained killer", a real soldier displays compassionate and empathy and during my time I always displayed christian values. I was a person first and a soldier second.

As for being a human shield in Iraq, well I won't comment on that because it will spark intense debate. Obviously your friend is ok and that is the main thing.

You shouldn't stereo type soldiers or ex soldiers, we aren't all rank and file orcs off lord of the rings who can't hold an effective debate or conversation and communicate only in field signals and the occasional clicks and clacks.

As for DU, I am probably more worried about exposure to Asbestos as the buildings in my barracks was full of the crap.

I will attempt to look at that site when time permits. Thanks for the info,

respectfully yours,

STF

[soldierturnedfarmer]

Soldier, I am glad that you are now a farmer. You know, your saying about good men doing nothing makes sense, but then, what about, "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."
pacifism is actually the only option if you truly want peace. there is no way to peace, peace is the way...

Well we always have another eye and the other saying is, in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king :lol: :razz: joke


STF

[soldierturnedfarmer]

Hiya STF - welcome, like Cornie said in the other post - lots of really knowledgeable people on board here - but I am not one of them either!!!

Tezza - that last post of yours was one of your absolute best - I agree with you so whole-heartedly, I too am sorry we have learnt nothing and still send young men to war.

SFT - I appreciate you have a different perspective - as you say, you signed on, not conscripted... your choice... but what makes me proud, and what I'd rather seen is Aussie troops doing humanitarian duties in Indonesia after the tsunami or in Pakistan after the earthquake or helping people in whatever part of the world needs it... that kind of tour of duty still leaves plenty of scope for adventure for 17 year olds like yourself ..... the Anzacs went off to Turkey 1915 desperate for adventure .... it's a long tradition..... .

DU means depleted uranium. google it.
If I can be so presumptuous, you need to inform yourself about this and any health implications. Agent orange was kiddies cordial compared to this stuff. Iraq is doused top to bottom with DU. That's what makes the bunker busting bombs bust bunkers - they are mini nuclear bombs - but that's an explanation from a civilian - the military will have another whole way to explain it.
I did a lot of on-line research into DU in 04/05. I was out of the office for a few hours one day and came back and IT had replaced my computer.
- NO, not a conspiracy, just "stuff happens". But I lost all my DU files that were on my "favourites", but I got it all from just googling Depleted uranium.

I sincerely absolutely hope your health has not been compromised - but if you are googled up on DU, you'll know what symptoms to monitor yourself for.

Thanks for the welcome mate, much appreciated.
As for the humanitarian efforts, I couldn't agree more, I am very proud of the guys cleaning up Cyclone Larry as the people up there really needed the help. Unfortunately the role of an army is not primarially to act like the state emergency service however it is a great secondary role for an army to fullfill. I know what DU is, I just didn't know what DU, the initials was. I have had a bit of knowledged with UXO etc in my time in the army. My health in the army was comprimised but through other means, not what I believe is to be DU. I have a good mate who was in the army back in the 70's and 80's and his brother is real crook with agent orange. He is having a real hard time fighting with the government, as I have said earlier, we treat our veterans like shit. The system needs a MAJOR overhaul.

STF

[soldierturnedfarmer]

Hiya STF - welcome, like Cornie said in the other post - lots of really knowledgeable people on board here - but I am not one of them either!!!

Tezza - that last post of yours was one of your absolute best - I agree with you so whole-heartedly, I too am sorry we have learnt nothing and still send young men to war.

SFT - I appreciate you have a different perspective - as you say, you signed on, not conscripted... your choice... but what makes me proud, and what I'd rather seen is Aussie troops doing humanitarian duties in Indonesia after the tsunami or in Pakistan after the earthquake or helping people in whatever part of the world needs it... that kind of tour of duty still leaves plenty of scope for adventure for 17 year olds like yourself ..... the Anzacs went off to Turkey 1915 desperate for adventure .... it's a long tradition..... .

DU means depleted uranium. google it.
If I can be so presumptuous, you need to inform yourself about this and any health implications. Agent orange was kiddies cordial compared to this stuff. Iraq is doused top to bottom with DU. That's what makes the bunker busting bombs bust bunkers - they are mini nuclear bombs - but that's an explanation from a civilian - the military will have another whole way to explain it.
I did a lot of on-line research into DU in 04/05. I was out of the office for a few hours one day and came back and IT had replaced my computer.
- NO, not a conspiracy, just "stuff happens". But I lost all my DU files that were on my "favourites", but I got it all from just googling Depleted uranium.

I sincerely absolutely hope your health has not been compromised - but if you are googled up on DU, you'll know what symptoms to monitor yourself for.

Thanks for the welcome mate, much appreciated.
As for the humanitarian efforts, I couldn't agree more, I am very proud of the guys cleaning up Cyclone Larry as the people up there really needed the help. Unfortunately the role of an army is not primarially to act like the state emergency service however it is a great secondary role for an army to fullfill. I know what DU is, I just didn't know what DU, the initials was. I have had a bit of knowledged with UXO etc in my time in the army. My health in the army was comprimised but through other means, not what I believe is to be DU. I have a good mate who was in the army back in the 70's and 80's and his brother is real crook with agent orange. He is having a real hard time fighting with the government, as I have said earlier, we treat our veterans like shit. The system needs a MAJOR overhaul.

STF

[Alex M]

The United States Presidency is currently under the control of a group of people who are, simply, fascists. They are fascists who closley resemble the historic NAZIs of World War 2, particularly because of their love of war, their contempt for life, and their desire to enslave the weak. Our Prime Minister, John Howard, is in league with them. Both our nations are still, nominally, democracies. The theory of our democratic system is that the people have the sovereign power to decide their own fate, rather than the government.

The cabal of corporate-controlled mass murderers who are controlling our futures must be brought to heal. We, the people of these democracies, still have the right to choose our leaders. John Howard's enthusiasm for this global fascist cabal's abuse of human rights, which includes the use of torture to extract untrue confessions, and the suspension of the eight-hundred-year-old principle of habeas corpus, makes him a criminal co-conspirator. He has opened the door to the environmental destruction that these criminals are determined to inflict on the world.

They have got to be stopped. They must be brought to justice. If their plans for the future come to fruition, this world will be a very unpleasant place for all but a few wealthy powerholders to live.

NAZISM did not die with Hitler. With the aid of a number of powerful business interests, including George Bush's grandfather, Prescott, it found a haven in the United States, and is building a new, world Reich. These are dangerous times.

[Richard on Maui]

Did you hear that Saddam Hussein has gone on hunger strike? Well, he isn't eating anything, except sports drinks and coffee with sugar. YOu know, I'm not saying I supported his despotism, but you sort of have to respect anyone who takes on the US military with just sports drinks and coffee with sugar... :lol:

[Tezza]

Poor fool probly dont realise hes making the yanks a little bit richer,but not buying Local...

Tezza

[frosty]

so did anyone else actually watch Dirty war ?

I found it excellent but it left me very sad and frightened

the poor people in the philippines epecially those children ....... a little boy with a big growth on his face ........ a 14 yo who couldnt hardly move but joked about wanting to be a pilot and a 15yo dying of leukemia his mother trying not to cry

how can people support militarism and let this happen ?

will aussies feel any different when it is our children ?

that is one of the things that really pisses me off about americans - 2800 people die inthe WTC and we never stop hearing about it yet show them foreigners dying due to american military bases - or dying in Iraq from DU or being shot by us soliers and they just ignore it :evil: the death toll in Iraq is approaching 200000 but they just refuse to count :cry:

and did anyone else notice how "slimey robert" Hill refused to state that DU had not been used on Aussie soil

on th subject of saddam he could never have killed as many people as the US invasion has :twisted:

frosty

[frosty]

Frosty,
first of all, my appologies if you believe that I was referring to you as a moron. That was not the case at all, if you read my post I am not actually directing it at you
it is nice of you to appologise but unfortunately no matter how you rephrase it it is obvious you consider any pacifist to be a moron and the cap fits me :lol: :lol: :lol: I am proud to be a passionate pacifist and anti militarism campaigner ........ I dont particularly care what teh pro military think :P

although in reference to the incident of attacking you and ripping off medals no pacifist participates in attacks ........ they were probably pro militarists who didnt like you marching with your fathers medals ...... :twisted:


Another time we were marching in a welcome home parade from East Timor when some uni students shovelled horse manure directly onto our path where we were marching. The soldiers broke ranks and ran in and punched on, to me this was idiotic though I can see why they did it. It bought disgrace upon ourselves, our unit and our country however everyone including the media tended to forget the fact that horse crap was shovelled on the road directly infront of us indicating severe disrespect and lack of understanding on what a soldier goes through.

now this is a typical pacifist activity as unfortunately was the violent response by the soldiers ....... and I agree they did disgrace themselves and show up what bullies they are ........ they dont diserve any respect

personally a bit of good old horse shit does no harm :lol: if you are going to become an organic farmer you will have to learn to love shit 8) here on the forum we all love shit the more the better !! if someone threw shit at me I would thank them it is worth more than gold if you have dry sandy land :lol: :lol: :lol:


Like I said earlier, the ADF has a long way to go with regards to enviromental protection however the standard certainly is higher then in the 1980's. My advice would be to rally your local member and make sure that they keep to their promises. The ADF does have a lot of yes sir, no sir lip service men and women in its ranks and this needs to be fixed.

We "rally" every politician we can :lol: slimey roberts secretary knew me well :lol: :lol:

but the DoD never keep any promises they just invent a new lie .......they treat us with unhidden contemp and think they are better than us and above the law


Soldiering isn't all about being as you eloquently put it a quote "trained killer", a real soldier displays compassionate and empathy and during my time I always displayed christian values. I was a person first and a soldier second.

I dont know you maybe you are the one who is different ........

but I have NEVER had any of the probably hundreds of soldiers and navy people I have spoken to display any compassion or empathy for the hell they make us live here .......

eg every summer they ignore the fire danger and laws to protect people - on days when it is over 40c with a total vehicle movement in paddocks and harvesting ban they drive out into the bush in the DTA and do demolition - they refuse to put in ANY boundary firebreak ......... we all now it is only a matter of time until we get burnt out and they just dont care

as to being trained killer - the main activity of the military is to train personell to kill so how then can any current or ex military person NOT be trained killer :?

and as my shelley quote says murder in uniform is still murder

anyone who joins the military is prepared to kill another human being which I am not FOR ANY REASON ........ you said you are a christian isnt life and death God's dept ? I am not religious but I do believe in do no harm


As for being a human shield in Iraq, well I won't comment on that because it will spark intense debate. Obviously your friend is ok and that is the main thing.

he certainly is not ok how could anyone think so ? but it is not right for me to say any more than that

have you ever read Riverbend blog ? try it and see what is really happening in Iraq ( will find link later cant open 2 windows now )


You shouldn't stereo type soldiers or ex soldiers, we aren't all rank and file orcs off lord of the rings who can't hold an effective debate or conversation and communicate only in field signals and the occasional clicks and clacks.

I dont strereotype soldiers ( or navy ) - my opinion is based on the contact I have with them and that includes right up to colonels and commanders - universally so far they have been arrogant condecending pricks :lol: :lol: :evil:

but I wouldnt say they cant hold a conversation or debate ....... they can lie better than most con men ...... they must have having a special lying school somewhere :lol: :lol:



As for DU, I am probably more worried about exposure to Asbestos as the buildings in my barracks was full of the crap.

honestly mate I dont want to frighten you but DU is a very real threat and unlike asbestos which takes 20 years or more to cause problems DU will effect you much sooner

the use of DU is he greatest war crime the world has ever seen ........ it makes the german nazis look like kindergarden

do check out the site for Blowin in the wind and try and see it somehow ...... in the film there is a lot about former US major Doug Rokke ....... he took 100 men to Iraq after GW 1 to try to clean up DU and they are all either dead or dying

Doug excretes 5000 times the safe amount of DU in his urine but the Pntgon tried to hide it for 5 years

Doug was a military man through and through and served in Vietnam but when he found out about the eral situation with DU he turned whistle blower

BTW I have actually met Doug IRL

also in the film is an aussie soldier who went to GW1 and now has problems and fears for his childrena health

and did you manage to see Dirty war ?

I have nothing personally against you as I said you may the one soldier who is different :D you are certainly on the right track wanting to turn farmer

but you did arrive here and pick out my post about the wonderful grandmothers of Henoko and launch into an attack on pacifists

those grandmothers are the type of people who are real heros ....... they make a superhuman effort to help their community and to save lives even the lives of animals

if we are ever to become civilised it is time to grow out of the outdated notion that war can ever promote peace and that people who don a uniform and go out prepared to kill other humans are some how better than the rest of us

we have a long way to go and a lot to learn before we all do no harm

good luck

frosty

[9anda1f]

Here's some thoughts:

1) We exist in a world-feudal state right now. Until there is one world government, there will continue to be feudal wars. Afterwards, there will be military action to "establish order".

2) Pacifist or not (let's just say patriotic, whether we believe that is being suckered-in by the government or closely held core beliefs) after the establishment of a world government (of whatever ilk), there will be an extreme of classes, from the most priveleged to the seriously downtrodden.

3) After a long period of underground activity, oppresive rule, and quarantine of areas of the earth due to deadly pollution, there will (hopefully) come a time of "enlightenment" and more equalization. Perhaps some real, global care of our planet.

Caveats to all of this:

1) We (the human race) get "off-planet" in a meaningful way before one world government (and subsequently carry the feudal-ness to space). This will start a new period of exploitation of extra-planetary resources.

2) We never get off-planet and die out as a species due to our overall negligence and short sighted exploitation of the planet and perpetual war (with all the associated environmental and human tragedies that have been mentioned in this thread). Or perhaps small pockets of human survivors begin again?

3) We finally get off-planet under a benevolent world government and ...?

These are ideas that have been rattling around in my head since first reading this thread, following the current wars, researching DU and other environmental atrocities, and comparing what I see to history.

Anyone else care to speculate on our species' possible long-term futures? Any other possible or more likely outcomes than those outlined above?

9anda1f

[frosty]

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

what is really going on in Baghdad


It's like Baghdad is no longer one city, it's a dozen different smaller cities each infected with its own form of violence. It's gotten so that I dread sleeping because the morning always brings so much bad news. The television shows the images and the radio stations broadcast it. The newspapers show images of corpses and angry words jump out at you from their pages, "civil war… death… killing… bombing… rape…"

Rape. The latest of American atrocities. Though it's not really the latest- it's just the one that's being publicized the most. The poor girl Abeer was neither the first to be raped by American troops, nor will she be the last. The only reason this rape was brought to light and publicized is that her whole immediate family were killed along with her. Rape is a taboo subject in Iraq. Families don't report rapes here, they avenge them. We've been hearing whisperings about rapes in American-controlled prisons and during sieges of towns like Haditha and Samarra for the last three years. The naiveté of Americans who can't believe their 'heroes' are committing such atrocities is ridiculous. Who ever heard of an occupying army committing rape??? You raped the country, why not the people?

In the news they're estimating her age to be around 24, but Iraqis from the area say she was only 14. Fourteen. Imagine your 14-year-old sister or your 14-year-old daughter. Imagine her being gang-raped by a group of psychopaths and then the girl was killed and her body burned to cover up the rape. Finally, her parents and her five-year-old sister were also killed. Hail the American heroes... Raise your heads high supporters of the 'liberation' - your troops have made you proud today. I don't believe the troops should be tried in American courts. I believe they should be handed over to the people in the area and only then will justice be properly served. And our ass of a PM, Nouri Al-Maliki, is requesting an 'independent investigation', ensconced safely in his American guarded compound because it wasn't his daughter or sister who was raped, probably tortured and killed. His family is abroad safe from the hands of furious Iraqis and psychotic American troops.

It fills me with rage to hear about it and read about it. The pity I once had for foreign troops in Iraq is gone. It's been eradicated by the atrocities in Abu Ghraib, the deaths in Haditha and the latest news of rapes and killings. I look at them in their armored vehicles and to be honest- I can't bring myself to care whether they are 19 or 39. I can't bring myself to care if they make it back home alive. I can't bring myself to care anymore about the wife or parents or children they left behind. I can't bring myself to care because it's difficult to see beyond the horrors. I look at them and wonder just how many innocents they killed and how many more they'll kill before they go home. How many more young Iraqi girls will they rape?

Why don't the Americans just go home? They've done enough damage and we hear talk of how things will fall apart in Iraq if they 'cut and run', but the fact is that they aren't doing anything right now. How much worse can it get? People are being killed in the streets and in their own homes- what's being done about it? Nothing. It's convenient for them- Iraqis can kill each other and they can sit by and watch the bloodshed- unless they want to join in with murder and rape.



9and1f

I am inclined to agree with you ........ the future looks glum

and AlexM

I meant to comment on your post which I think is spot on

the axis of evil - bush blair and Howard make the nazis look tame

and somestupid people still cant see it :cry:

frosty

[soldierturnedfarmer]

[quote=soldierturnedfarmer]
Frosty,
first of all, my appologies if you believe that I was referring to you as a moron. That was not the case at all, if you read my post I am not actually directing it at you
it is nice of you to appologise but unfortunately no matter how you rephrase it it is obvious you consider any pacifist to be a moron and the cap fits me :lol: :lol: :lol: I am proud to be a passionate pacifist and anti militarism campaigner ........ I dont particularly care what teh pro military think :P

although in reference to the incident of attacking you and ripping off medals no pacifist participates in attacks ........ they were probably pro militarists who didnt like you marching with your fathers medals ...... :twisted:


Another time we were marching in a welcome home parade from East Timor when some uni students shovelled horse manure directly onto our path where we were marching. The soldiers broke ranks and ran in and punched on, to me this was idiotic though I can see why they did it. It bought disgrace upon ourselves, our unit and our country however everyone including the media tended to forget the fact that horse crap was shovelled on the road directly infront of us indicating severe disrespect and lack of understanding on what a soldier goes through.

now this is a typical pacifist activity as unfortunately was the violent response by the soldiers ....... and I agree they did disgrace themselves and show up what bullies they are ........ they dont diserve any respect

personally a bit of good old horse shit does no harm :lol: if you are going to become an organic farmer you will have to learn to love shit 8) here on the forum we all love shit the more the better !! if someone threw shit at me I would thank them it is worth more than gold if you have dry sandy land :lol: :lol: :lol:


Like I said earlier, the ADF has a long way to go with regards to enviromental protection however the standard certainly is higher then in the 1980's. My advice would be to rally your local member and make sure that they keep to their promises. The ADF does have a lot of yes sir, no sir lip service men and women in its ranks and this needs to be fixed.

We "rally" every politician we can :lol: slimey roberts secretary knew me well :lol: :lol:

but the DoD never keep any promises they just invent a new lie .......they treat us with unhidden contemp and think they are better than us and above the law


Soldiering isn't all about being as you eloquently put it a quote "trained killer", a real soldier displays compassionate and empathy and during my time I always displayed christian values. I was a person first and a soldier second.

I dont know you maybe you are the one who is different ........

but I have NEVER had any of the probably hundreds of soldiers and navy people I have spoken to display any compassion or empathy for the hell they make us live here .......

eg every summer they ignore the fire danger and laws to protect people - on days when it is over 40c with a total vehicle movement in paddocks and harvesting ban they drive out into the bush in the DTA and do demolition - they refuse to put in ANY boundary firebreak ......... we all now it is only a matter of time until we get burnt out and they just dont care

as to being trained killer - the main activity of the military is to train personell to kill so how then can any current or ex military person NOT be trained killer :?

and as my shelley quote says murder in uniform is still murder

anyone who joins the military is prepared to kill another human being which I am not FOR ANY REASON ........ you said you are a christian isnt life and death God's dept ? I am not religious but I do believe in do no harm


As for being a human shield in Iraq, well I won't comment on that because it will spark intense debate. Obviously your friend is ok and that is the main thing.

he certainly is not ok how could anyone think so ? but it is not right for me to say any more than that

have you ever read Riverbend blog ? try it and see what is really happening in Iraq ( will find link later cant open 2 windows now )


You shouldn't stereo type soldiers or ex soldiers, we aren't all rank and file orcs off lord of the rings who can't hold an effective debate or conversation and communicate only in field signals and the occasional clicks and clacks.

I dont strereotype soldiers ( or navy ) - my opinion is based on the contact I have with them and that includes right up to colonels and commanders - universally so far they have been arrogant condecending pricks :lol: :lol: :evil:

but I wouldnt say they cant hold a conversation or debate ....... they can lie better than most con men ...... they must have having a special lying school somewhere :lol: :lol:



As for DU, I am probably more worried about exposure to Asbestos as the buildings in my barracks was full of the crap.

honestly mate I dont want to frighten you but DU is a very real threat and unlike asbestos which takes 20 years or more to cause problems DU will effect you much sooner

the use of DU is he greatest war crime the world has ever seen ........ it makes the german nazis look like kindergarden

do check out the site for Blowin in the wind and try and see it somehow ...... in the film there is a lot about former US major Doug Rokke ....... he took 100 men to Iraq after GW 1 to try to clean up DU and they are all either dead or dying

Doug excretes 5000 times the safe amount of DU in his urine but the Pntgon tried to hide it for 5 years

Doug was a military man through and through and served in Vietnam but when he found out about the eral situation with DU he turned whistle blower

BTW I have actually met Doug IRL

also in the film is an aussie soldier who went to GW1 and now has problems and fears for his childrena health

and did you manage to see Dirty war ?

I have nothing personally against you as I said you may the one soldier who is different :D you are certainly on the right track wanting to turn farmer

but you did arrive here and pick out my post about the wonderful grandmothers of Henoko and launch into an attack on pacifists

those grandmothers are the type of people who are real heros ....... they make a superhuman effort to help their community and to save lives even the lives of animals

if we are ever to become civilised it is time to grow out of the outdated notion that war can ever promote peace and that people who don a uniform and go out prepared to kill other humans are some how better than the rest of us

we have a long way to go and a lot to learn before we all do no harm

good luck

frosty[/quote:2gxk6za8]

Frosty,
How are you going mate?
Hope all is well.

I don't consider every pacifist to be a moron, I have members of my own family who are pacifists. I just think that there are genuine pacifists and others who are shit stirrers, for example one group who shall remain nameless who drags school kids out of school for rallies. These school kids didn't even know what they were protesting about. When I was in highschool and Muroroa (spelling I know) happened, I took a day off school to protest but I actually went to the rally, not like some of my mates who pissed off home for a vegemite samwhich and a swim.

The guy was not pro military who ripped my fathers medals off, he was a pinko commie symapthising sap who was brainwashed and wouldn't listen to commonsense and reason. Like I explained earlier in my posts, you wear your medals over your heart and your relatives/mates that are deceased over your right side. It is commonplace tradition, no veteran or military sympathiser would have a go for that. You certainly have a lot of anomosity towards our service men and women. I was once refused entry by a bouncer into a club in Newcastle because he asked me if I was army and I answered proudly "yes". He then told me to piss off because he quote, "hated army pricks". I replied "why mate? did one sleep with your missus?" That gobsmacked him, I hate people that stereotype us just because there are some rotton apples in the barrell. Just because someone doesn't share your views, doesn't mean they are not a good person.

I never mentioned the grandmothers of Henoko so I don't know why you think I attacked that facet of your post. You say that you are NOT prepared to kill a human being for ANY reason? I highly doubt that, I am sure that if your family was threatened, you would rise to the occasion. Have you ever heard of the flight or fight theory? It is in our genetic makeup, obviously you would try to get away but if you were cornered, you would fight.

As for the unit breaking ranks and punching on, I don't condone it, however dickheads shovelling shit on the road should have been arrested. I guarentee they will at least think twice before doing it again. Its unfortunate that the pinko left media failed to mention the shovelling of the shit on the road, at the very least it was GROSS INCOMPENTENCE!
My uncle got back from Vietnam and was hassled to no end. If you have a problem with our armed forces, TAKE IT UP WITH THE GOVERNMENT AND NOT WITH THE TROOPS! That is your democratic right, I am always forced to at least verbally defend myself, it is not a crime to be patriotic! Most of us have good intentions, when I have been overseas we have always had huge hearts and minds campaigns to avoid bloodshed and it works! The yanks could take a huge leaf out of our book and follow our example. A lot of people join the defence force to learn skills and serve their nation, not just kill. Granted I was infantry and that was my main role however I had my reasons.

I have a mate that joined and became a cook, now he is working in one of the best resturants in asia. I tell you what if he had to pick up a rifle and fight, you know we're in trouble, he didn't fire a shot at the range once for 15 months!

I don't understand your comments on this "hell hole" that the ADF is making you live in! This country is the best country in the world, I am widely travelled and I have gone places where there is no way you could access them as a civilian. You may put crap on soldiers, sailors and airman but I think this is your democratic right, you should just redirect your animousity to the government.

I think this poem sums it up well:

The Soldier

It is the soldier, not the reporter,
who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the soldier, not the poet,
who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

It is the soldier, not the lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the soldier,
who salutes the flag,
who serves under the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
who allows the protester to burn the flag.

By Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC


Kind regards as usual,

STF

[Richard on Maui]

Actually, mate, it is usually soldiers who deny freedom of the press. They are the ones the government uses to go around smashing up radio stations and newspaper offices, or simply intimidate.
It is the reporters and other speakers who have the courage to stand in the face of such threats, real or implicit, and make their voices heard, who guarantee freedom of speech, noone else.
If I am to thank soldiers for my freedom, I also have to thank them for the instability and everpresent violence in the world.
There is no way to peace, peace is the way. Or; violence begets more violence.
It isn't that hard to understand, is it?

[frosty]

mmmmm you are a worry STF <rolleyes> you either misunderstood or missed the point of most of what I said

maybe I should rethink my comments about soldiers and debating :?




How are you going mate?
Hope all is well.

maybe I should tell you I am not a "mate" :lol: I am actually a little old lady

and as usual living near a DTA well is not well ........ weekends mean weekend warriors rampaging through the bush and keeping us awake allnight with the noise of gunfire :evil: so I am grumpy tired and ugly cause wen you are old and buggered you really do need your beauty sleep

so I am going to address this comment you made first - please try really hard to read what I say carefully


I don't understand your comments on this "hell hole" that the ADF is making you live in! This country is the best country in the world, I am widely travelled and I have gone places where there is no way you could access them as a civilian. You may put crap on soldiers, sailors and airman but I think this is your democratic right, you should just redirect your animousity to the government.


my coment related in no way to the county - I live in hell because I live near a DTA ...... sadly if not for the military this could have been a really good place to live

it is coastal heath country with lots of unique flora and fauna ...... it should be a nature reserve not have the military trashing the vegetation and killing wildlife in droves

the emissions from their explosions are polluting our air with carcinogens and neurotoxins and will eventually kill us and probably kill our children first

the decay of the remains of the bombs as well as the UXO is polluting our water supply

in summer the military are the neighbours from hell who dont observe the fire safety laws and we are scared to leave our property and our animals in case they start a fire ..........

as already said the noise of bombing and gunfire means we cant sleep

we have the fear of US planes flying over us when they come ...... we all know how accurate they are

so this part of Australia along with other sites like pristine Shoalwater is being destroyed

why is that OK with you ????????????? what justification can there be


I don't consider every pacifist to be a moron, I have members of my own family who are pacifists. I just think that there are genuine pacifists and others who are shit stirrers, for example one group who shall remain nameless who drags school kids out of school for rallies. These school kids didn't even know what they were protesting about. When I was in highschool and Muroroa (spelling I know) happened, I took a day off school to protest but I actually went to the rally, not like some of my mates who pissed off home for a vegemite samwhich and a swim.

of course their are some shit stirrers among pacifists there are among any group ......... even your mates :wink: so how many of you army mates are in it just for the thrill of carrying a gun and itching to shoot someone or something ? :twisted:



The guy was not pro military who ripped my fathers medals off, he was a pinko commie symapthising sap who was brainwashed and wouldn't listen to commonsense and reason.

mmmmmm so you do understand the concept of brainwashing ......... but think who is in the best position to be brainwashing - the commies with a few members and hardly any funds - or a large govt funded organisation eg the military :wink: and they need young men like you as cannon fodder

and for the life of me cant find any common sense or reason for why we invaded Iraq - just greed - OIL Operation Iraqi Freedom :lol: :lol: :lol:


You certainly have a lot of anomosity towards our service men and women.

it took years of all out effort by the military to create my animosity :lol: :lol:


I hate people that stereotype us just because there are some rotton apples in the barrell. Just because someone doesn't share your views, doesn't mean they are not a good person.

I already told you my attitude comes from my experience ........ if I was as bad as you say I wouldn't be bothering debating with you would I :oops:


You say that you are NOT prepared to kill a human being for ANY reason? I highly doubt that, I am sure that if your family was threatened, you would rise to the occasion. Have you ever heard of the flight or fight theory? It is in our genetic makeup, obviously you would try to get away but if you were cornered, you would fight.

again I am NOT prepared to kill a human being

your phrasing killing as rising to the occasion is a worry ........ so you think of it as a good thing wheras I would definately view it as sinking to the level of the attacker

[uote]As for the unit breaking ranks and punching on, I don't condone it, however dickheads shovelling shit on the road should have been arrested. I guarentee they will at least think twice before doing it again. Its unfortunate that the pinko left media failed to mention the shovelling of the shit on the road, at the very least it was GROSS INCOMPENTENCE![/quote]

so who brainswshed you with all this pinko stuff :? I thought the military had moved on to new villains :evil: :evil:

and you really DO need to learn to love shit if you want to be a permie :lol: :lol: :lol:



My uncle got back from Vietnam and was hassled to no end.

my generation had more guts than the present kids and we knew vietnam was all a lie ........ we supported those who had the guts to be conscientious objectors and yes we protested against those who went and killed inncoent people.........bt why should soldiers be above reproach ? they took part in mass genocide ....... did you know that MILLIONs of innocent vietnamese were killed by that military adventure ?


If you have a problem with our armed forces, TAKE IT UP WITH THE GOVERNMENT AND NOT WITH THE TROOPS!

as I said I take it up with BOTH


That is your democratic right, ROFLMAO :lol: :lol: :lol: people who lie near a military training area have no rights we are expendable for the glory of militarism

I know its most ungrateful of us not to just die quietly <rolleyes>



I am always forced to at least verbally defend myself, it is not a crime to be patriotic!

so why shouldnt you have to defend your actions ? we are all responsible for what we do and as such should be able to defend our reasons fo doing so

being in the military IS no different yet you seem to think it puts you above reproach ?

patriotism is not a crime but maybe it should be ……..along with nationalism it breeds racism

a few quotes from some very wise people

Our true nationality is mankind.
HG Wells

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -
George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism ... is a superstition artificially created and maintained through a network of lies and falsehoods; a superstition that robs man of his self-respect and dignity, and increases his arrogance and conceit.
Emma goldman

One of the great attractions of patriotism -- it fulfills our worst wishes. In the person of our nation we are able, vicariously, to bully and cheat. Bully and cheat, what's more, with a feeling that we are profoundly virtuous." -
Aldous Huxley

Heroism at command, senseless brutality, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action!"
Albert Einstein




sorry but I think your poem is just the biased justifications of a US marine


here is something by someone much more famous and a lot less biased


WAR PRAYER

BY

MARK TWAIN

This was dictated in 1904 but he was advised by his family not to publish it because it would be regarded as sacrilege. He resolved that it be published after his death, he died in 1910 and the War Prayer was published in 1916.

I wonder if any minister has ever read it to the congregation.

"The War Prayer" is a story that takes place on a Sunday in church at a time when the nation is preparing for a war. The preacher has just finished praying that God will guide the nation’s young soldiers safely to victory, when a mysterious stranger enters the church and declares, "I come from the Throne – bearing a message from Almighty God!. . . If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! Lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. . . . When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory . . . . For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of – except he pause and think."

The stranger then reveals why he has come. "Upon the listening spirit of God the Father also fell the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!"

O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it – For our sakes who adore Thee, Lord blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract heir pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it in the spirit of love, of him who is the Source of Love and who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all who are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts



kind regards
frosty

[permanut]

After reading this thread (I should'nt of) I am so angry words just cannot describe. The Depleted uranium link was horiffic...it has mentaly scarred me.STF you are the one who seem to be brainwashed IMO.
Im off out to my garden now to try and bring some joy back in my life.

[Cornonthecob]

I agree!!!

Lets get rid of all soldiers.

The world would be a much safer and happier place. There would be no violence or mayhem. Everyone would get alone with his/her neighbour....all the trouble in the world would disappear overnight.

I feel for those who live near an army base or training area, having done so myself over many years. Nothing could be more annoying, or heartbreaking, than to try to set up your own little piece of paradise only to have the army come along and set up camp next door to you.

But Richard...if it's the government who uses soldiers why isn't your anger aimed at those governments? Do you condem police who are acting of the orders of their government, or will you take the easy way out and blame the police.

You can post anything you like here....and of course you'll only post the 'bad'.....A girl raped by american soldiers, I hope they get what they deserve! I know of a girl who was stoned to death because some american soldiers gave her some chocolate...as an act of friendship....will we balme those soldiers for her death, or should we blame those who killed her....of course we can always say it was the americans who caused it!

If you feel so strongly about it pm me your address and I will send you the plane fare so you can stand on the shores of Gallipoli next year, and there tell all who will listen just how worthless and vile those soldiers were, how they have caused all numbers of disgraceful acts throughout time.

Or maybe you could go visit the many Legacy Widows and children around this country and sit with them for a while....tell them how pathetic their husbands and fathers were, how they wasted their life.

I honestly would love to see how you would go.

Any man who would rape a girl, or anyone for the matter, should be lined up and shot in my opinion. An army is society with weapons....a mirror if you like.

It would be too easy to say that this forum should only be about permaculture...we're all human, and should talk about what matters to us.

I can believe everything in this thread..it isn't that hard to believe...to accept.

Rapes do happen, murder does happen. But, amongst the inevitable retort, can someone please explain why the insistance of only presenting one side of the arguement is ever presented?

How is it that by posting foreign soldiers in a country compells people to kill their own. How is it that these people are not held accountable....or wouldn't that sit too well with the picture that you're trying to paint?

If you can't, or are too scared, to present both sides of the story..........

And that, after much writing (crap) is my point.

It doesn't take courage to show both sides of the coin....it takes decency.

:)

[murray]

frosty,

weekends mean weekend warriors rampaging through the bush and keeping us awake allnight with the noise of gunfire. the emissions from their explosions are polluting our air with carcinogens and neurotoxins and will eventually kill us and probably kill our children first. the decay of the remains of the bombs as well as the UXO is polluting our water supply. in summer the military are the neighbours from hell who dont observe the fire safety laws and we are scared to leave our property and our animals in case they start a fire. we have the fear of US planes flying over us when they come.
this sounds like hell on earth. what's stopping you moving somewhere else if things are this bad? it does seem unlikely that the military are going away anytime soon.

honest question.

murray.

[Tezza]

If Ive said it Once Ive said it a few times.......


We get the society we deserve........

We cant blame the army,navy or airforces,We cant blame George,Tony or Little Johnny

We just blame us Dick head Voters..In a Pure Democracy we have Choice

God gives us free Choice.........

Our Brains. Einstein once said we only use about 1% of our brains..

Well to some people that figure seams a gross exageration of figures..

S T F Im glad you seen the Light and become a normal human again WELCOME BACK.......

I like you and probly 99% of males get patriotic over their country,footy,cricket,rugby teams and get all macho etc at any threat or injustice delt upon our Group.......I too was brainwashed via the british schooling,To hate.French,Italians,Germans,Japanese,u name em i been taught to hate them.Then one day I realised Id grown up,trouble was I was 32.I am no longer Patriotic ........NO WAY...Self defence only...

I declared my self a Citizen of Earth about that time........
Im not English and certainly Not Australian.....I wont be a hypocrite and declare my life,body or soul to any country. least of all any country with the values of uk usa or aus Government......

One last thing though........Im glad the board is resonably friendly re the heart felt subject..and HOPE that this continues AFTER all we are all on same side arnt we...Lets keep it friendly please.....

Muzza Ever tried selling A house with a bombing range in your back garden.....Who/what kinda person would wanna by it...


Tezza

[Mungbeans]

It doesn't take courage to show both sides of the coin....it takes decency.

Quite. Thank you Cornonthecob.

I have been quite distressed by the vileness directed towards Soldierturnedfarmer in this thread. Permanut, if your comments truly reflect the hate you have in your heart towards some of your fellow man then I suspect no amount of gardening is going restore your joy.

The military is guilty of much stupidity and many atrocities, but I believe that a country's military reflects both the best and worst of the society from which the soldiers come. It isn't the Permaculture Institute restoring peace in East Timor.

[murray]

to all concerned, i have asked permanut to edit his/her post to remove the personal attack on STF and to refrain from making personal attacks in future. debating the issues is what we are here for -- not to tell other people that they belong in the ground. i'm sure most of us can agree on that.

Tezza:

Muzza Ever tried selling A house with a bombing range in your back garden.....um, do the property tours on the quiet days? :)

[Richard on Maui]

Ok, Corn on the Cob, to answer your question, I think that all individuals should take responsibility for their actions. Police, soldiers, elected representatives - all who participate in war are responsible to the extent that they are involved.
Trying to pass the buck up to Howard or Bush is a bit crap.
You are quite right though, there are two sides to every story. Still, in Iraq, at least the people who are fighting the US army and the US backed Iraqi army are from Iraq, or at least that general part ofd the world. What in the heck are Aussies and Yanks doing over there?

[permanut]

The military is guilty of much stupidity and many atrocities, but I believe that a country's military reflects both the best and worst of the society from which the soldiers come. It isn't the Permaculture Institute restoring peace in East Timor.[/quote]Mungbeans.

:lol: You and STF together seem to be brainwashed. Actually the milltary are in East Timor under the guise of restoring peace when actually they are there securing Australian interests.

[Mungbeans]

securing Australian interests.

Oh you are so right. Next time lets just leave them to machete each other to bits. And ignore their goverment's plea for help. So much more moral.

From now on lets insist on taking high moral ground and never again secure our interests.


You and STF together seem to be brainwashed

What was it Murray said about not attacking people? Argue the point, not the person.

[Cornonthecob]

G'day Richard :)

As Permanut pointed out (I always thought everyone knew this?)...protecting their countries interest. Same as why we went into East Timor....anybody who says differently really doesn't understand the world. But of course you just can't go wandering into another country these days, you need a reason...if there isn't a reason, you make one up.

No one should be surprised by this...look at history...it's how the world works. Sad, but true.

I think one of the stumbling blocks with 'discussions like this is: that a person who isn't/hasn't been a soldier sees the world as they would like it, while a soldier sees it as it is....for better or worst, and whether you wish to believe it or not, there are people out there who just are not nice at all! Though we all start as cute cuddly babies don't we?

Some people have faith in god...others try to do the same with their governments. Me....I'll just plant another tree.

Another sad fact is that in some parts of the world people are only ever 'happy?' when fighting...some countries/parts of the world do need to be controlled by a government using some form of force military/police to maintain order and put a stop to violence....again, it's sad but true. As a species mankind really is kinda pathetic hey!

:)

Oh!....tis ok, I am way too old, ugly and lazy to take offence about anything personal. :)

[Richard on Maui]

Well, Corn on the Cob, we do agree on one thing, and that is that the most important thing we can do to improve the world is plant more trees!
Since my last post I have put in, um, let's see, I think 16 Sesbania grandifloras and 18 pidgeon peas, so a total of 34!
But you know, I have to take an opposing point of view to the one you expressed. While it might seem like in some parts of the world people are only happy when they are fighting, I think that this just isn't so. Most of the people in those places are made miserable by the conflict. There are a few people in power that benefit, and everyone else is swept along in the madness.
If we really look at what causes conflict, it is most often over competition for resources. Forget all the hyped up bullshit about religion or ideology or whatever, it is all just tribes fighting for resources. In the world today you can, depending on your view of history trace the roots of all these conflicts back to the exploitation by western powers during the colonial period.
I think that it is a bit rich to say that soldiers are the only ones who can see the world for how it is. Perhaps carrying a gun around so much tends to make one, I don't know... Do you think it is actually likely that soldiers get a warped view of peoples intentions? I mean, if you go around all warlike, you are going to see that reflected in the people that you encounter, don't you think?
Either way, I think that Permaculture is a useful tool for world peace, since if it is successful it will create sustainable human settlements, which by definition provide abundant resources for people in perpetuity. It seems to me that greed and anger most often come from insecurity, real or percieved, so by designing for food security and water security and energy security, and every other kind of security, we can go a long way towards unravelling the causes of war. We just need to remember to share the surplus! :D

PS Permanut, you are out of line, being personally insulting. As mung says, argue the point, not the person.

[Cornonthecob]

lol I went out and planted 120 pigeon pea seeds....please pray for them! :)

With the comment about some people only being happy if they were fighting, I was thinking of what I'd seen in Africa...you know, the clan/tribe thing...some places need a dictator type to control that sort of thing...yes they usually turn out to be corrupt, but there's peace (what price peace?)....I've seen people prepared to kill over rice that has been spoiled by diesel...how can you not shake your head at that.

Another example off the top of my head...the breakup of the Soviet Union...look at what has happen/is happening to those new (well old but new now) states. Not a perfect example..but an example nevertheless! :)

Yes it was a bit rich (only soldiers seeing the world for it is)....but said to highlight that soldiers and civilians see the world through different eyes, you don't have to be too clever to really see the world as it truely is. And trust me, some soldiers aren't overly smart!

I'm not sure if soldiers develope a warped view of peoples intentions...certainly they become a bit cynical (finally I can blame it on someone!) about things....sometimes I think it comes down to the fact that there are times when a soldier is required to make a decision based on his training, his humanity and his better judgement. When you're in a country that is empty of law and order you make calls the best that you can. When your job is to confiscate weapons from people you do that...but there are times, when you look into the eyes of a man and his family and decide to let him keep his, so he can at least have some way to protect his family....but you always walk away hoping that that weapon won't be used against you or your mates.

One of the hardest things about being a soldier is that some people forget that you're still human.

Damn getting all deep and teary eyed now! lol

A man once sang about 'living for today' 'living life in peace' 'sharing all the world'.....that man was shot dead.

Best we just keep planting trees Richard! :)

[Richard on Maui]

Yeah, we'll keep planting trees, and brah, I hope one day you'll join us, and the world will live as one. :wink:

[frosty]

Tezza:
[quote:7kbkyvgw]Muzza Ever tried selling A house with a bombing range in your back garden.....um, do the property tours on the quiet days? :)[/quote:7kbkyvgw]

Hi Murray

basically tezza has it right but it isnt just a matter of showing the house on a quiet day

I doubt we could sleep nights if we did dupe anyone like that :cry:

and I doubt anyone would fall for it anyway - everyone knows there is a bombing range here now so property values are very low and even if we find someone to buy it we cant afford to buy anywhere else

partly the blame for everyone knowing sits with us :lol: we made a decision that the right thing to do was "fight" the good fight and try and make the world aware of what was hapening here and to the people living near military training areas wherever they may be

if anyone who didnt see Dirty war wants me to run them off a video copy Pm me .......... it shows the real issues involved ........ those poor people in the philippines cant do much they are too busy trying to just survive poverty and sickness


it is up to people like us with the help of a growing global network to shout out that this killing must stop - the killing of civilians by pollution from training ........ War is bad enough but killing your own people in the name of defence is obscene


once you understand that it makes all the Ra Ra stuff sound hollow ....... and the responses by the ex soldiers here show how effective the military are at hiding the facts from them

I know that neither corny or STF would really condone killing fellow aussies especially children ...... in fact they probably the have trouble believing it happens - I am sure they were never told the emissions from bombs and shells are harmful but it sadly they are ......... and of course they are harming to them as well as to us ....... who would ever join up knowing that the exposures could effect their future children ?

and BTW of course military activities are a major contributer to global warming but you wont ever hear that on the TV news

the military industrial complex needs cannon fodder ....... they need the support of the people to take money away from where it is really needed to literally blow it up in smoke

my quotes are getting a hammering but here is another -

very government is made, every warship that is launched, every
rocket that is fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those
who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
This world in armaments is not spending its money alone. It is
spending the sweat of its labourers, the genius of its scientists,
the hopes of its children.

dwight D Eisenhower

how many of you had any idea that the death toll of war is not restricted to the war zone

frosty

[frosty]

Corny your remarks werent directed at me but I do feel they need some comment as the seem to have arrisen from things I have said


Lets get rid of all soldiers.

The world would be a much safer and happier place. There would be no violence or mayhem. Everyone would get alone with his/her neighbour....all the trouble in the world would disappear overnight.

I know this as sarcasm but the reality is that until we do get rid of soldiers we wont have world peace ....... I dont want to run foul of murray but I am sure you have heard that old saying that fighting a war for peace is like F***in for virginity :evil:

surely you can see how american's throwing its military weigh arround promotes terrorism ?


I feel for those who live near an army base or training area, having done so myself over many years. Nothing could be more annoying, or heartbreaking, than to try to set up your own little piece of paradise only to have the army come along and set up camp next door to you.

I appreciate that you realise this ........ if only the local army or navy people that we try to communicate with could just once say something similar we would not have such a low opinion of them - but they always insist we have nothing to complain about and dismiss us as whingers


if it's the government who uses soldiers why isn't your anger aimed at those governments? Do you condem police who are acting of the orders of their government, or will you take the easy way out and blame the police. []/quote]

I do blame the govt in both cases but as richard said people must also take responsibility for their own actions

if no one would go and kill people then those in govt would have to either stop making war or go themselves :lol: :lol: :lol: I think we could all agree it would have been much better for everyone if GW and saddam had just squared off with pistols at dawn


You can post anything you like here....and of course you'll only post the 'bad'.....A girl raped by american soldiers, I hope they get what they deserve! I know of a girl who was stoned to death because some american soldiers gave her some chocolate...as an act of friendship....will we balme those soldiers for her death, or should we blame those who killed her....of course we can always say it was the americans who caused it!

while you cant blame the soliers as such for the stoning ( even me :P ) it does show how foreign soldiers dont understand local culture in foreign countries and should stay in their own .........

can you imagine how it must feel to have a foreign army occupy your country ? I feel bad enough having one train here :twisted: sometimes my belief in non villence is stretched to singing "lord wont you buy me an anti aircraft gun" :oops: especially at midnight with waves of superhornets still flying over since after starting at 10am ....... and the whole house virating- the windows rattling and the dog still barking as loud as he can :evil:



If you feel so strongly about it pm me your address and I will send you the plane fare so you can stand on the shores of Gallipoli next year, and there tell all who will listen just how worthless and vile those soldiers were, how they have caused all numbers of disgraceful acts throughout time.

in times past when wars were fought on battlefields the situation was very different - now planes fly over cities and drop bombs that rip civilians to bits in their own homes ........ where is the honour in massacring innocent women and children


Rapes do happen, murder does happen. But, amongst the inevitable retort, can someone please explain why the insistance of only presenting one side of the arguement is ever presented? [/quotes]

personally what really pisses me off is that particularly the US always protect its soldier rapists and there are many....... there seems to be a culture with US military that it is ok to rape foregners or even murder civilians ........and of course every bomb dropped on a city murders civilians but no one says anything

I will admit the aussies seem to behave better 8) I cant off hand think of a rape and I was impressed that the guy who kicked a corpse in E timor was presecuted ........ we all know if he was american they wouldnt have cared :cry:


the TV presents the glory of war side of the coin ad nauseum (sp) the bad stuff is hidden so some one has to try and even the score :P I can barely type well enough to present the unheard side

[quote=Cornonthecob]
I think one of the stumbling blocks with 'discussions like this is: that a person who isn't/hasn't been a soldier sees the world as they would like it, while a soldier sees it as it is....for better or worst, and whether you wish to believe it or not, there are people out there who just are not nice at all! Though we all start as cute cuddly babies don't we?

[/quote:29pawlim]

corny this really is a very predudiced and patronising statement ......... soemthing I would expect from the pricks I deal with here but I did expect better from you :cry:

I believe a soldiers sees the world as his masters want him to see it .......

some of us see the world as our own research and experience evaluates it ........ yes we too may develop some bias but it is a bias we come to ourselves by free choice not one we are fed by an organisation seeking to manipulate us

frosty

[murray]

hi frosty

>corny this really is a very predudiced and patronising statement

you do know that you're quite capable of patronising people too, right?

i'll quote you from your previous post so you know what i'm talking about:

I am going to address this comment you made first - please try really hard to read what I say carefully...
just food for thought for the next time you accuse someone of being patronising... :oops:

m.

[permanut]

hi frosty

>corny this really is a very predudiced and patronising statement

you do know that you're quite capable of patronising people too, right?

i'll quote you from your previous post so you know what i'm talking about:

I am going to address this comment you made first - please try really hard to read what I say carefully...
just food for thought for the next time you accuse someone of being patronising... :oops:


STAY ON THE FENCE MURRAY!!

[Cornonthecob]

:shock:

[Richard on Maui]

On and on and on... :oops:

[Mungbeans]

:shock: :( I think I've finally found a proper use for the 'Ignore' button.

[earthbound]

Interesting discussion, nice to hear from so many different sides of the fence... Wish I'd seen the show... :D

[Cornonthecob]

Just how many sides can one fence have! :shock:

:razz:

[frosty]

hi frosty

>corny this really is a very predudiced and patronising statement

you do know that you're quite capable of patronising people too, right?

i'll quote you from your previous post so you know what i'm talking about:

I am going to address this comment you made first - please try really hard to read what I say carefully...
just food for thought for the next time you accuse someone of being patronising... :oops:

m.

fair enough murray I was patronising to STF but he did miss the point or misunderstand most of what I said

and also to be fair my post to corny went on to say
I did expect better from you

we all know (or should by now ) that I am a grouchie old bag ( I blame living near a DTA of course ) :lol: :lol: :lol:

but corny is usually very civil and fair :?

but seems he wont answer me :cry:

so here is some more ino on DU

frosty

online at
http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/ ... 8064938448 (http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20060708064938448)




Uranium bombing in Iraq contaminates Europe



(San Francisco) Nine days after the start of the American president's 2003 "shock and awe" uranium bombing campaign in Baghdad, an invisible radioactive uranium oxide gas cloud swept through Britain's towns and countryside and throughout Europe.

Respected scientists reported on the unrevealed gas cloud after conducting research on specialized high volume air filters in England. Dr. Chris Busby and Saoirse Morgan stunned Europe in a Sunday Times of London article on Feb. 19, 2006. Their scientific paper, released March 1st, 2006, [1] proved the event. With all the vigor of delusional drunkards, British nuclear and military spokesmen predictably denied the reality of an invisible radioactive cloud.

The military claimed that a Chernobyl-like event in the area was probably responsible, but no explosive meltdowns of operating reactor cores have been reported or observed in 2006 anywhere in the world. Evidence of the truth of the gas cloud panicked the military into frantic, irrational, ludicrous denials. The military spin was later refined and the new Chernobyl claim quietly dropped.

In America, lightweight wannabe spin doctor Dan Fahey issued the cover up talking points. [2] The "nuke sycophants" will take up these siren call lies as per instructions.

Bush's radioactive "shock and awe" gas cloud descended on Britain and Europe like a warm, deadly ticking blanket and stayed throughout the American and British shock and awe bombing campaign in 2003. Bush's radioactive cloud lasted more than five weeks at high radioactive particle concentration levels. There is no gas mask filter fine enough to trap this radioactive gas and protect humans.

At Aldermaston, England, where the data was collected and where the British Atomic Weapons Establishment, complete with air monitoring facilities, is located, the deadly uranium oxide gas measured about 48,000 radioactive particles per square meter. The average radioactive dose, according to official government index based calculations, was about 23 million radioactive particles for the average adult male in Britain and Europe.

Yes, people breathed this poison gas, absolutely. People throughout England and presumably throughout Europe breathed in large quantities of this radioactive uranium poison gas.

What are the effects of the poison gas cloud? After a steady decline for 41 years, the infant death rate has started inching up, many researchers think because of the Central Asian nuclear wars. The infant death rate is the most sensitive measure of the health of the human race. Like the proverbial canaries in a coal mine, the tiniest babies die first.

George W. Bush, as the current appointed manager of the senior American political and military establishments, oversees a vast empire that knows exactly what the effect of millions of pounds of deadly weaponized radioactive ceramic uranium oxide gas and tiny aerosols are on the health of people throughout the world. They used uranium munitions in Iraq anyway.

The American political and military leaders wanted to use genocidal weapons. You might even say the U.S. military went out of their way to use these radiation-based genocidal weapons in Iraq. Lots of them, too.

Indeed, the American permanent war establishment has known the effect of poisonous uranium oxide gas since 1943. A declassified World War II memo to Gen. Leslie Groves, director of the ultra-secretive Manhattan Project to make atomic bombs, listed two reasons to use radioactive gas: One was to kill people, and the other was to contaminate their land. [3]

A British newspaper quotes Dr. Busby, a government adviser on radiation, as saying: "This research shows that rather than remaining near the target, as claimed by the military, depleted uranium weapons contaminate both locals and whole populations hundreds to thousands of miles away." [4]

There were and are laws in England that require notification of the government when levels of radioactivity are reached around the nuclear weapons complex at Aldermaston. No notification was made. When the records were requested, the clearly labeled "shock and awe" time frame data was omitted.

The Defense Procurement Agency in Bristol supplied the missing data to scientists Busby and Morgan. The real British patriots are the ones who provided the deleted incriminating data to Busby and Morgan.

Bush and his faithful followers, the neocon fascists, will be remembered as securing their place in history by exposing hundreds of millions of people to high levels of internal radiation poisoning. Make no mistake about it; this is real radioactive uranium gas. The Americans used this genetics changing and killing weapon on men, women and children. It made no difference to the Americans.

The citizen opposition liberal groups in America who only stand on the street corners with signs are misdirecting legitimate citizen outrage and protest. These groups are more than just not effective; they contribute to the protection of the multi-national corporations, senior political and military leaders involved in these pre-planned war crimes.

About ineffective protests, the famous author Ward Churchill says: "(N)o one really cares a whit that a sector of the beneficiary population (American protesters) has chosen to bear a sort of perpetual 'moral witness' to the crimes committed against the Third World. What they do care about is whether such witnesses translate their 'professions of outrage' into whatever kinds of actions may be necessary to actually put an end to the horror." [14] When will the protesters awaken and take action to put an end to this horror? Never? Sometime? When?

A well planned effort

The American military is nothing if not well planned. When the decision was made to go nuclear in conventional warfare with the promiscuous use of radiation dispersing uranium weapons, including land mines, bullets, shells, missiles and bombs, the proper and correct Army rules and regulations for radiological clean-up were created as well. These rules have the force of American law throughout the world. However, the same government that adopted these rules is not following them, even in the United States.

Army Rules and Regulations on Radiation Poisoning (AR 700-48 and TB 9-1300-278) [15] unambiguously specify that U.S. troops and local civilians exposed to radiation poisoning will be treated. Radiation casualties exist, and provisions are made for their care as best as can be done for a non-curable bystander affliction: radiation poisoning. Clean and treat rules also apply; they are just not obeyed.

In short, the regulations say that if the U.S. military is going to use radioactive weapons, then it must clean up the radiological contamination and treat the casualties. It is consistent with the philosophy of some "if you break it, fix it" former U.S. military leaders. The applicable rules and regulations are a common sense approach and the only responsible radiological warfare position for the only superpower on the planet.

The rules are not followed even in the United States itself [5] but are buried away in their mountains of paperwork. Why has this approach been rejected by the senior U.S. political leadership? http://tinyurl.com/bk2yn

Marion Fulk, a consultant physicist at the Lawrence Livermore Nuclear Weapons Lab, is one of the original Manhattan Project scientists. When asked if the main purpose for using depleted uranium was for destroying things and killing people, Fulk was more specific: "I would say that it is the perfect weapon for killing lots of people." [6]

Dr. Rosalie Bertell, a respected scientist who serves on a variety of Pentagon committees, says about 1.3 billion people have already been killed, maimed or diseased since the nuclear age started. [7] Is this the Pentagon's purpose for using uranium munitions and rejecting the legally mandated task to treat and clean?

Most reasonable people would agree that racking up 1.3 billion people killed or maimed since the beginning of the nuclear age and the American uranium bombing tragedy spreading the gas cloud to Europe and Britain is not the "treat and clean" approach to radioactive warfare set out in the regulations.

On the contrary, the Bush radioactive gas cloud is just the opposite. The plain purpose of exposing hundreds of millions of people would seem to be to kill and sicken more people. As a rare Pentagon admission said, "The properties of uranium do not change."

Famed former Lawrence Livermore Nuclear Weapons Lab scientist Leuren Moret has spoken about the dangers of so-called "depleted uranium" in 42 countries. In "Exotic Weapons," the author, radio and film celebrity states, "Since 1991, the continued U.S. military use of dirty bombs, dirty missiles and dirty bullets threatens humanity and all living things ... and is turning Planet Earth into a death star." [8] [12]

Massive carpet bombing of whole countries with uranium bombs appears to be the current war fighting plan of the U.S. military. Unfortunately, U.S. troops are the first to be sacrificed on the altar of the neocon warfare plan for total global domination.

As former U.S. Secretary of State and National Security Adviser Henry Kissinger said, "Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy." [9] American political and military leaders never asked the "pawns" or troops if that was OK.

In the authoritative World Affairs Journal, Moret states: "The Korea Times reported on Dec. 23, 2005, that the U.S. military has 2.7 million depleted uranium bombs [pre-positioned] in South Korea. It is understandable why North Korea wants nuclear weapons." [10]

North Korea is just slightly smaller than the American state of Mississippi. Two million seven hundred uranium bombs is enough to carpet bomb with workhorse Air Force B-52s at the rate of 10 bombs per square mile. Some researchers believe that grid bombing with uranium bombs was used in the American war in the former Yugoslavia. There is clear circumstantial evidence that carpet bombing with genocidal weapons is the preferred response of the American military to local resistance efforts.

The San Francisco-based humanitarian and war crimes lawyer Karen Parker states unequivocally that the use of depleted uranium in American/U.K. weapons in Iraq, Afghanistan and the former Yugoslavia is a war crime. War crimes are punishable by imprisonment or execution, typically by hanging or a firing squad.

America's war criminal class of senior politicians and military leaders has a powerful reason to lie about using genocidal weapons for at least 15 years in Central Asia - their very lives depend on it. In Johnny's Dad's words, the senior leaders are "filthy rotten scum." [16]

Upcoming war crimes trial

The chief Nuremberg war crimes prosecutor speaks knowingly and directly across more than 50 years to resolutely instruct American citizens on exactly what our duty is today, right now: "Individuals have international duties which transcend the national obligations of obedience … therefore have the duty to violate domestic laws to prevent crimes against peace and humanity from occurring." [11]

The statement was affirmed by the Nuremberg Tribunal and is now international law and, by extension, American law. It is our duty as Americans to prevent crimes against peace and humanity. The fascist administration now controlling America and the U.S. military cannot be allowed to continue these crimes. The world and international law holds us all accountable, and the price is dear.

It is time to impeach and imprison members of our government for their war crimes commensurate with their degree of complicity and guilt. If the House will not impeach and the Senate will not put them on trial; then we, all 300 million Americans, have a problem.

We all are citizens of this country and the world, and, as such, we must acknowledge the incontrovertible evidence of war crimes by the leaders of the American Expeditionary Forces in Iraq with the use of genocidal weapons. Bush and others crossed the line long ago when they lied to get us into the Iraq War.

They continue to lie about the damage being done with uranium weapons. One of the comforts history provides us is a road map out of unthinkable situations, to a more or less tenable, workable future.

The injured and maimed and families of the dead are due treatment and/or compensation, the cleanup must be initiated and whole countries rebuilt. That is the true legacy of the neocons, the new American Nazis.

What people can do

Every single day thousands of American military and government workers handle thousands of "sensitive" papers that "prove" the War Crimes of the American Government's senior political and military leaders.

These thousands of people could, if they wanted to, create havoc in the fascist administration by providing these incriminating papers and the "smoking guns" of innumerable crimes they hold to the public: A "paper blizzard" to teach a whole new generation that what's right is right.

About 40 years ago, it was thousands of pages of the "Pentagon Papers" that did the trick with the illegal Viet Nam War and President Nixon. Thousands more pages are needed now.

The neocon or neolib papers like the disgraced New York Times or the conservative phantom Washington Post no longer will do the right thing. The timid NYT took almost a year to publish the proof of illegal NSA government spying on American citizens. Bush then bragged about the illegal spying on network prime time television.

We do not need "timid" now. Far less than that forced Nixon to leave the president's office.

Do what you think best

To follow up on these ideas, the following Speaker's Group and individuals are presented to you for your important events. Speaker's fees are required.

Writers & Warriors Speakers Group

Contact Bob Nichols at bob.bobnichols@gmail.com for college distinguished lecture series speakers, commencement speakers, people's events and rallies. Available speakers include Leuren Moret, Dr. Doug Rokke, Dennis Kyne, Karen Parker and Bob Nichols.

Topics generally include those of interest in building a positive culture in the midst of a militarized society and items of interest in nuclear warfare.

A well known video, "The 14 Characteristics of Fascism," from Dr. Lawrence Britt, Ph.D., Mike Malloy and Eric Bumrich is a great, short video. See http://www.bushflash.com/14.html. It is only a few minutes long but goes a long way in telling why American leaders embrace the rampant use of genocidal weapons. The "14 Points" video is a great way to start a meeting.

The following documents were consulted in the preparation of this essay.

1. Dr. Chris Busby and Saoirse Morgan, "Did the use of uranium weapons in Gulf War 2 result in contamination of Europe?" March 1, 2006, "European Biology and Bioelectromagnetics." http://www.llrc.org/du/subtopic/aldermastonrept.htm

2. Dan Fahey's instructions to his secretary, Jack Cohen, for distribution, du-list@yahoogroups, Feb. 26, 2006, 11:52 p.m.

3. Letter to Congessman McDermott, Attachment 2. Declassified memo to general L.R. Groves, director of the Manhattan Project, Oct. 30, 1943. http://tinyurl.com/93eq9

4. The Sunday Times, Britain, Feb. 19, 2006, "UK radiation jump blamed on Iraq shells," quoting Dr. Chris Busby.

5. Bob Nichols, "Radioactive Tank No. 9 comes limping home," San Francisco Bay View newspaper. http://tinyurl.com/bk2yn

6. Marion Fulk quoted in the San Francisco Bay View newspaper by Leuren Moret in "Depleted uranium: Dirty bombs, dirty missiles, dirty bullets - A death sentence here and abroad," Aug 18, 2004. http://www.sfbayview.com/081804/Deplete ... 1804.shtml (http://www.sfbayview.com/081804/Depleteduranium081804.shtml)

7. Rosalie Bertell, Ph.D., "Planet Earth: The Latest Weapon of War." http://tinyurl.com/gf9dj

8. Leuren Moret, "Planet Earth as a Weapon and Target," World Affairs Journal, Vol. 9, No. 4, Winter 2005. http://tinyurl.com/e6d8v

9. Kissinger's quote regarding military men comes from Chapter 14, which extensively discusses Al Haig, Kissinger and other Nixon staff advisors' negotiations and differences over national security issues during the 1969-1974 period. The exact, direct quote marks begin with the word 'dumb' and terminate after the word 'used.' Source: Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein, "The Final Days," second Touchstone paperback edition (1994), chapter 14, pp. 194-195.

10. Leuren Moret.

11. War Crimes Watch, http://tinyurl.com/k6xb3

12. Documentary "Beyond Treason" with Moret, Rokke and Dennis Kyne. http://www.beyondtreason.com/ Documentary "Blowin' in the Wind" with Moret and Rokke. http://www.bsharp.net.au/

13. Dissent Voice, Bob Nichols. "There Are No Words: Radiation in Iraq equals 250,000 Nagasaki Bombs ...." http://tinyurl.com/yqxoe

14. Ward Churchill, "The Ghosts of 9-1-1: Reflections on History, Justice and Roosting Chickens," Alternative Press Review http://tinyurl.com/fvhzn

15. Army Regulation 700-48 and Technical Bulletin 9-1300-278 can be found easily at the Traprock Peace Site. http://tinyurl.com/erjue and http://tinyurl.com/pzcrm And the regulations themselves, http://tinyurl.com/kl2r2 and http://tinyurl.com/jzha8 Adobe .pdf versions are also available for download from Traprock Peace Center.

16. "Johnny Got a Gun - Protest Song" by Johnny's Dad. Uranium Weapon Anthem. Distribute freely: http://tinyurl.com/k2zze

This author won a prized Project Censored Award for an article on depleted uranium munitions in October 2004. The article was titled "There Are No Words." http://tinyurl.com/yqxoe (headlined in the Bay View "Radiation in Iraq equals 250,000 Nagasaki bombs," http://www.sfbayview.com/041404/radiati ... 1404.shtml (http://www.sfbayview.com/041404/radiationiniraq041404.shtml). [13] Turns out that story was but Part One, a thing I never suspected would be so. This article is Part Two and serves as an update for the war fighting activities of the senior American political and military leaders.

Bob Nichols is a Project Censored Award Winner. He is a correspondent for the San Francisco Bay View newspaper and a frequent contributor to various on line publications. Nichols is completing a book based on 15 years of nuclear war in Central Asia. Nichols is a former employee of the McAlester Army Ammunition Plant. Nichols can be reached by email. You are encouraged to write bob.bobnichols@gmail.com

[Tezza]

Funny Aint It Everyones gettting angry again,BUT not quite as bad as before

John Lennon (greatest song writer of the modern world gets Quoted)

This bloke was was 36 years ahead of his time..........Funny how some see the truth and others just cant see past their noses

Imagine that


Tezza

[murray]

dear PRI forum memebers: while i don't care that i was told to STFU (who really cares? I don't), i'm concerned about the pattern of behaviour that's beginning to appear from this member. are you?

anyone else happy to show permanut the door at this point?

and frosty: i always appreciate your posts and believe it or not, i share most of the views you espouse on this board. :shock:

[Tezza]

Being an ex Bad hair day poster.....

Id like to give Permanut the chance to oppolagise to yourself first Muzza

Then a warning then

Last result Expulsion ...We do have sensitive People who visit..Women
and who knows maybe even underage children....

Im Sure Perma nut will be ok from now on.......

Tezza

Weve lost a lot of people due to various reason just latly its a shame.....

But we do need the occasional rule ........Do we all agree



Tezza

[murray]

But we do need the occasional rule ........Do we all agree
tezz, i'm happy to listen to the consensus, but after all the crap this board has seen in the past year, i am getting less and less inclined to take an easy, wait-and-see approach on people who show a pattern of abuse and bad behaviour.

[Tezza]

Ok whatever you reckon Muzza......


Just dont take post numbers offa me if you must, take em off Richard 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)



Tezza

[permanut]

Alright I lost my temper (again), but seriously murray you the site admin, its not your job to get in the middle of peoples arguments/debates and point out that they are being patronising. IMO I think that scathing sarcasm is a lot worse, than a few swearwords. I'm sorry if I shocked all you sensitive middle aged permie baby boomers, but us next generations are pretty angry at what has/is being done to the planet. It must be all nice for you having made all your lovely equity on the housing boom and be able to afford your lovely blocks, and then too sit back and play armchair generals. Ban me if you want, I don't care I'll just open under another name. You can't control the internet so you might as just as well put up with Permanut. I admit I am not the most knoledgeable permaculturalist on here but at least I'm being myself and not kissing backside all the time. Do as you like but remember the principle 'Use and value diversity' and 'use edges and value the marginal'.

[murray]

permanut,

i'll thank you to not tell me my role here. i'm a user/student here as much as i am an admin. i admit that it's a challenge to play different roles, but i think most people here will tell you that i do an OK job.

i wouldn't put up with one user here telling another to @#$ off so tell me why should i take it from you and like it? fyi - there have been a few PMs to not ban you, so this is what you need to do in order to stay in good standing:

1. please go back and edit the bad language out of your earlier post (our board terms of service specifically mentioned foul language)

2. take care to not fly off the handle again and make an attack personal. if it happens again you will be banned. (in 9 posts you've managed to tell one user they should be dead in the ground and told the site admin to @#$% off. impressive.)

cheers

:)

murray
:joker: (with his site admin hat on)

[Richard on Maui]

You know, I tend to have pretty anarchist type politics a lot of the time, and when I read Permanut's comments in this thread, I thought, "Either this youngster is either really stupid or really cool...".
I'm still undecided on that point, so I would prefer if he wasn't evicted, as much so that I can make up my mind on that point as anything. I would actually prefer if noone was evicted, other than professional spammers. I think it is much more healthy when people realise that their antisocial behaviour isn't appreciated and they go away on their own accord, or even better, they grow up and get better! If we have a few losers coming around and turning people off, well, that is the cost of freedom! Surely we can take a sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me, type approach.

Tezza, mate, I take that as a challenge; let's see who gets to 1000 posts first! Actually, I don't care. YOu have way more better jokes per post than anyone else here, and that counts for a lot in my book.

[earthbound]

I think you've done the right thing Murray.... It's an emotional topic to discuss..

Be nice Permanut, lifes to short.. (and no, I'm not a baby boomer)

Oh, and Corny, there's many sides to a fence, the left side, the right side, the wrong side, front side and back side, inside and outside, all viewable when perched, balanced on said fence.... :? :lol: :lol:

[Tezza]

Blushing Ricky Blushing Ricky Blushing Ricky



Tezza

Im only joking but heck i got slapped a few bans and post deletions as well if not by saYng but by starting it long before Permanut came along :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

[Cornonthecob]

Awww don't be confusing me Joel....you know I'm a tender soul.

:)

[frosty]

I am too late for the discussion bu I am glad permanut was given another chance .......

I feel a bit responsible fo his/her outbursts
:cry:

After reading this thread (I should'nt of) I am so angry words just cannot describe. The Depleted uranium link was horiffic...it has mentaly scarred me.

this is an emotive issue and a lot of people who knew nothing about it are shocked to realise what is going on ......... when we show "Blowin in the wind" there is always a long shocked silence at the end then people get angry

I am always guilty of getting too passionate about it - I was caught out by murray and he was right :oops: ....... I thought of editing my post to STF but in the end I said it so let it stand ......

f you read this STF I appologise for that and also for my comments about your uncle and vietnam which should have been put in a more tactful manner ...... as I said I know I am a grouchie old bag :oops: :lol: I am totally against physical violence and I do believe wholeheartedly in pacifism but I am a great believer that the pen is mightier than the sword :lol: and I can weild a rather viscious pen :evil:

I hope you will come back because I did mean it when I said I that I had nothing personal against you ....... and it is good to see ex military people turning to caring for the land and there is lots of knowledge here on the forum that will help you

frosty

[Douglas J.E. Barnes]

This is from a few pages back. Sorry if this is dragging up a topic that has already been beaten to death.


Here's some thoughts:

1) We exist in a world-feudal state right now. Until there is one world government, there will continue to be feudal wars. Afterwards, there will be military action to "establish order".

Please, no. I am already nothing with 30 million in my country. Under a world government, I would by absolutely insignificant and I don't want to be less than nothing.

I will agree to a world government under one condition: that everything is headed by one emperor and that I am that emperor (even though Bill Mollison wants the job :lol: ).


Anyone else care to speculate on our species' possible long-term futures? Any other possible or more likely outcomes than those outlined above?

We are not getting into space permanently. For one thing, such an undertaking is well beyond the scope of the total world economy. For another, we have nowhere to go. Venus it too hot, Mars too small and distant from the sun, and one cannot live for long in space (cosmic rays, bone loss, etc.) This is our planet. Get used to it.

Our long term future does not look good right now. As Noam Chomsky points out, the question of whether nature's only experiment with higher intelligence can survive or not can only be answered if there is a negative answer. Until a "no" comes, you still have to wait for the outcome. We still have thousands of nuclear weapons on hairtrigger alert (for absolutely zero reason) which are just waiting for a computer failure. We have industrial societies destroying the absolutely vital climate that makes them possible. We have one species claiming 40% of the globe's primary energy for itself. We have cities infecting outward like a malignancy full of buildings designed by architects with one goal in mind: to prove they have zero understanding of how to make a sensible building. We have food production dropping (peak food occured in 1999). We have an 80% drop in krill populations and a decline in every pelagic species in the oceans.

This drunken teen kegger is almost over and the bill is on it's way. What we are doing is unsustainable and therefore by definition cannot continue. But if it could, what kind of world would it be if we could urbanise absolutely every last corner of the planet? I can honestly say, I would much, much, much rather be dead. I would rather be dead than to know that there are no wild places left in the world.

But back to our chances. Two patterns that continues through mankind's history are, on the macro scale, destruction of our environment; and, on the micro scale, denial. Some, likely most, of us on these pages are changing our lives to fit in with the planet. Most people on the planet, however, are not and likely will not until nature forces them to. Scientists often point out the pattern we are in then say silly things like "But I have great hope in mankind's intelligence to recognise this trap and get us out." Where in the world would they get this optimism from? What historical even would lead them to think that this would ever happen?

[Douglas J.E. Barnes]

Sorry, I cannot leave this one alone:


You say that you are NOT prepared to kill a human being for ANY reason? I highly doubt that, I am sure that if your family was threatened, you would rise to the occasion. Have you ever heard of the flight or fight theory? It is in our genetic makeup, obviously you would try to get away but if you were cornered, you would fight.

A personal threat to one's own safety or the safety of a loved one is not by any stretch of the imagination, anything like killing, or even just committing violent acts under government order. That is a faulty analogy.


As for the unit breaking ranks and punching on, I don't condone it, however dickheads shovelling shit on the road should have been arrested. I guarentee they will at least think twice before doing it again. Its unfortunate that the pinko left media failed to mention the shovelling of the shit on the road, at the very least it was GROSS INCOMPENTENCE!

First and least relevant, please don't pretend that large corporations owned by the richest segments of the population and whose boards of directors are intermingled with boards of other major corporations owned by the richest segments of society, and which depend upon advertising dollars from business are "pinko." That does not even rise to the level of a joke. That crap might fly on Free Republic of Little Green Fascists, but it will rightly only be laughed at here.

Second, I am a "pinko," thank you very much. Libertarian socialist, to be exact. If your intent is to turn everone here against you, I'd say continue making comments like that.

Third, at worst, the perpetrators of the act you mention should be charged with littering. By no stretch of the imagination do they deserve to be physically attacked. But, if physical attack is to be considered a reasonable approach to their violation of municipal, state, or federal laws against littering, what is to be the appropriate punishment for your violation of the Kellog-Briand Pact and the UN Charter?


It is the soldier, not the reporter,
who has given us freedom of the press.

No, it was people demanding their rights. Don't disgrace them by pretending their struggles never existed.



It is the soldier, not the poet,
who has given us freedom of speech.

No, it was people demanding their rights. Don't disgrace them by pretending their struggles never existed.


It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

Well there's a fine "Fuck you" to all those murdered in the civil rights struggle in the U.S. Stop disgracing them by pretending their struggles never existed.



It is the soldier, not the lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trial.

Well, seeing as how any one of us could be "rendered" at any time, there is not right to a fair trial. But I'll play along. This is simple, we need merely look at legal history. Habeas corpus ad subjiciendum, for example, was not won in battle. It was established under the reign of King Edward I with the first recording of it being 1305.

[Tezza]

Well Typed Douglas




Tezza

[frosty]

yes douglas well done

here is another article that may help people understand the issues


World News
Military Pollution: The Quintessential Universal Soldier
By Lucinda Marshall
Mar 30, 2005, 00:43

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Dirty wars: Military toxicity and pollution
As children, we were taught that the military protected us in times of war.
We learned about soldiers being killed and wounded by 'the enemy', and how
people died if they got shot or if a bomb landed on them. Sometimes innocent
people got killed during a war, but the fact that most victims were
civilians was carefully hidden from us by our elders. They knew that
children are smart enough to understand that there is a big moral difference
between killing other soldiers and killing ordinary people. That a
significant number of deaths were caused not by a weapon's impact, but by
its toxicity and by military pollution, was never mentioned.

We did not learn that military toxins know no boundaries, that they don't
just kill the enemy, they kill our military personnel and people living near
military bases, that they pollute the water, land and air. We were not
taught and still aren't told today that military toxins go anywhere and kill
everything, that they are in fact the quintessential universal soldier.

We Have Met The Enemy
The U.S. Department of Defense is the largest polluter in the world,
producing more hazardous waste than the five largest U.S. chemical companies
combined1. The types of hazardous wastes used by the military include
pesticides and defoliants like Agent Orange. It includes solvents,
petroleum, perchlorate (a component of rocket fuel) lead and mercury. And
most ominously, depleted uranium.

The health problems that have been documented as being attributable to these
various toxins in military use include miscarriages, low birth weight, birth
defects, kidney disease and cancer. Military pollution most directly affects
those who are targeted by our weapons, soldiers and anyone living near a
military base, both in the U.S. and abroad. In the U.S., one out of every
ten Americans lives within ten miles of a military site that has been listed
as a Superfund priority cleanup site2.

Given where chemical and nuclear weapons are used, tested, manufactured,
stored and disposed of, the burden of health impacts and environmental
destruction falls disproportionately on poorer communities, people of color
and indigenous communities. Women face particularly severe problems because
of their sensitive reproductive tissues and children because their immune
systems are not yet fully developed3.

Way Off Base
The number of health problems and environmental problems that have been
reported near military installations throughout the world is truly
staggering. The following are only a few of the many examples.

The U.S. Navy is the largest polluter in the San Diego, California area,
having created 100 toxic sites during the last 80 years. Environmental
damage caused by the Navy includes spilling over 11,000 gallons of oil into
the San Diego Bay in 1988. Fish in the Bay contain high levels of mercury
and radioactive compounds that are attributable to Navy pollution of the
Bay4.

Near the Naval Air Station in Fallon, NV high rates of cancer and rare
diseases have probably been linked to the dumping of jet fuel, radio and
electronic emissions and the contamination of groundwater with radioactive
materials. Fallon has the highest per capita rate of childhood leukemia in
the nation5.

It is important to note that the contamination of military bases is also a
problem overseas where significant toxic pollution has impacted the areas
near U.S. military bases in countries such as South Korea, the Philippines
and Panama.

Pollution from the manufacturing of military weapons is equally horrific.
The soil near a plant that manufactured depleted uranium rounds in Colonie,
New York was found to have 500 times the amount of uranium that one could
normally expect to find in soil6.

Military waste disposal sites also pose significant problems. Recently,
evidence of contamination from the Diamond Alkali plant which manufactured
Agent Orange that was used in Vietnam was found in the Newark Bay in New
Jersey. Bottom dwellers in the Bay contain the highest levels of dioxins
ever recorded in aquatic animals, high enough to guarantee cancer at the
same levels in humans. Many low income, immigrant and homeless residents of
the area rely on the Bay for subsistence fishing and thus face the
considerable risks of exposure and ingestion of Agent Orange7.

At Rocky Flats, a former nuclear weapons plant site in Colorado, Jon Lipsky,
a former FBI agent, has recently come forward to expose the contamination of
the land that he says the EPA and FBI and Department of Justice are
suppressing. Lipsky and other plaintiffs in a case against the DOJ are
concerned about plans to turn Rocky Flats into a wildlife refuge without
adequately cleaning up the contamination. As Lipsky and others point out,
disguising a toxic dump as a tourist attraction to be visited by
schoolchildren is unacceptable8.

The cleanup of sites such as these have slowed considerably since President
George W. Bush took office. EPA inspections at military sites have dropped
by 10%. The number of fines has dropped by 25% and the dollar amount of
fines has been smaller. Overall spending on the cleanup of military sites
has dropped 20% since 2001. Military spending on the cleanup of hazardous
sites amounts to only 1% of the military budget9.

As is the case with many pollutants, the effects of perchlorate, a toxic
rocket fuel component, knows no bounds. New research has found perchlorate,
in women's breast milk in eighteen states. It can also be found in ground
water, crops such as lettuce and dairy milk. Perchlorate can cause mental
retardation, loss of hearing and speech and motor skill problems10. Like
other pollutants that are now finding their way into breastmilk, perchlorate
puts mothers in the untenable position of simultaneously nurturing and (many
times unknowingly) poisoning their children.

Testing, 1, 2, 3
Nuclear testing is responsible for particularly hazardous pollution.
Amchitka Island, off the coast of Alaska was the site of three nuclear
weapons tests in a mile-deep shaft on the island in the late 1960's and
early 1970's. The last bomb tested was the equivalent of 400 bombs the size
of the one that was dropped on Hiroshima.

At the time the tests were conducted, wildlife populations in the area
dropped off dramatically. Afterwards, when workers started reporting health
problems, their claims were initially dismissed but eventually they were
awarded compensation for "occupational illness". Doctors now say Amchitka
workers will develop cancer at twice the rate of other Americans. More
ominously, in the late 1990's Greenpeace conducted tests that showed
radioactive substances including plutonium in the waters near Amchitka.
Scientists have also found that geological forces in the island chain are
producing movements that may at some point in the future allow nuclear
materials in the test shaft to leak into the surrounding land and water11.

In "The Clan of the One-Breasted Woman", Terry Tempest Williams shares her
poignant realization that the breast cancer that struck her mother, aunts
and grandmothers was in all probability due to the radiation they were
exposed to during the atomic testing that took place in Utah (where they
lived) between 1951-196212. Despite assurances that the tests posed no
danger, clearly the testing of bombs that were hundreds of times larger than
those used at Hiroshima and Nagasaki would certainly pose a danger. And a
report from the Breast Cancer Fund has recently concluded that ionizing
radiation is the "best established environmental cause of breast cancer13."

>From Here To Eternity
It is the military's use of Depleted Uranium that should cause the most
alarm. Not only is the evidence of irreparable harm becoming undeniable, it
is also quite clear that the U.S. government has been aware of the lethality
of these weapons for quite some time. Despite denials of health risks, a
1950 Army pamphlet states, "Although there is negligible danger from uranium
and plutonium outside the body, it is possible for dangerous amounts of
these elements to enter the body through the lungs, the digestive system, or
breaks in the skin14." An FAA Advisory Circular written in 1984 stated, "if
particles are inhaled or ingested, they can be chemically toxic and cause a
significant and long-lasting irradiation of internal tissue." In 1990, U.S.
Army Armaments, Munitions and Chemical Command (AMCCOM) reported that
depleted uranium is a "low level alpha radiation emitter, which is linked to
cancer when exposures are internal." AMCCOM's radiological task group also
pointed out that the "long term effects of low doses [of DU] have been
implicated in cancer.there is no dose so low that the probability of effect
is zero." The risk to our own military personnel was spelled out in a 1993
letter from the U.S. Army Surgeon General stating that, "When soldiers
inhale or ingest DU dust, they incur a potential increase in cancer risk."
And in 1995, a U.S. Army U.S. Army Environmental Policy Institute report to
Congress says that depleted uranium has the potential to generate
"significant medical consequences15."

The impact of depleted uranium on Gulf War veterans is so staggering that it
is incomprehensible that the U.S. government persists in denying the damage
done. The numbers tell the obvious story. During the three-week war in
1990-91, 467 U.S. personnel were reported injured. Since then, more than
11,000 Gulf War veterans have died and more than 600,000 are on permanent
disability due to their exposure to depleted uranium, or what we
euphemistically call Gulf War Syndrome.

But U.S. military personnel are of course not the only victims of depleted
uranium. Many returning soldiers brought it home to their families as well.
Wives and girlfriends have been contaminated through sperm, causing a
variety of gynecological problems, including cancer and the need for
hysterectomies. Children born to Gulf Veterans have a much higher than
normal incidence of birth defects, cancer and other diseases16.

And of course, the same problems that have plagued our own citizens have
also taken place in the countries where depleted uranium has been used,
including the Balkans, Afghanistan and Iraq. In Basra, Iraq, cancer rates
have leapt from 11/100,000 in 1988 to 123/100,000 in 2002. Cancer in
children under the age of fifteen has tripled at the Basra Maternity and
Children's hospital since 1990. Children under five years of age now make up
56% of the reported cancer cases, in 1990, they were 13% of the total. There
were several cases of babies born with multiple congenital birth defects in
1990. In the last three years there have been more than 200 such cases. This
scenario is being played out wherever depleted uranium has been used17.

The Ultimate Crime
As human rights attorney Karen Parker explains, the use of depleted uranium
is illegal in four ways:

It fails the territorial test because it can't be contained on the
battlefield. The impact of depleted uranium continues to be felt after the
battle is over. It is illegal because it causes inhumane death and injury.
Depleted uranium irreparably damages the environment. For all these reasons,
the use of depleted uranium is in violation of the Geneva Convention and
constitutes a war crime18.

Writing Our Collective Epitaph
The impetus to write this article came from my own history. When I was only
a baby my grandmother, Lenore G. Marshall, was one of the early leaders in
the effort to stop nuclear testing. A co-founder of The Committee for a Sane
Nuclear Policy (SANE), she worked tirelessly to stop nuclear testing in
Nevada and Amchitka. In the fullness of time, it is abundantly clear that
her instincts were correct, and the peril we face today is many times
greater. Why then are we still persisting in our use of toxic weaponry in
the face of such overwhelming danger to our environment and health?

There is no justification for our military killing us to protect us. And as
the founding of SANE foretold, it is truly insane to think that we can
justify permanently damaging the earth and endangering the future of
humanity in the pursuit of global empire, even if one thought that was an
admirable goal. In the process of killing everything in sight, we seem
oblivious to the fact that we are also committing suicide. Our continued
ignorance and silence will become our collective epitaph.

Lucinda Marshall is a feminist artist, writer and activist. She is the
Founder of the Feminist Peace Network, http://www.feministpeacenetwork.org which
publishes Atrocities, a bulletin documenting violence against women
throughout the world. She blogs at
http://blog.zmag.org/bloggers/?blogger=marshall.

Notes:

1 "War on Earth" by Bob Feldman, Dollars and Sense, March/April 2003. Also
see the Military Toxics Project, http://www.miltoxproj.org.

2 "Pollution cleanups pit Pentagon against regulators" by Peter Eisler, USA
Today, October 14, 2004.

3 "Health and Environmental Costs of Militarism" by Rosalie Bertell,
presented in Barcelona, June 24, 2004.

4 "War on Earth" by Bob Feldman, Dollars and Sense, March/April 2003.

5 "The Fallon, NV Cancer Cluster And A US Navy Bombing" by Jeffrey St.
Clair, Counterpunch, August 10, 2002.

6 "War on Earth" by Bob Feldman, Dollars and Sense, March/April 2003.

7 "Activists Oppose Plan to Dredge Up Agent Orange Residue in NJ Bay" by F.
Timothy Martin, New Standard News, January 27, 2005.

8 "The Rocky Flats Horror Picture Show" by Amanda Griscom Little, Grist
Magazine, January 21, 2005.

9 "Pollution cleanups pit Pentagon against regulators" by Peter Eisler, USA
Today, October 14, 2004.

10 "Rocket Fuel Chemical Found in Breast Milk of Women in 18 States" by
Robert Roy Britt, Live Science, February 24, 2005.

11 "Amchitka Nuclear Tests", December 23, 2001.

12 "The Clan of One-Breasted Women" by Terry Tempest Williams, Awakened
Woman, March 1, 2005.

13 "State of the Evidence: What Is the Connection Between the Environment
and Breast Cancer?", Third Edition, Edited by Nancy Evans, Health Science
Consultant, Breast Cancer Fund, 2004.

14 "What Does The U.S. Govt. Know about DU?" by Leuren Moret, International
Criminal Tribunal for Afghanistan, Traprock Peace Center, November 25, 2003.

15 "Some of the U.S. Government's Documentation of Harmful Effects of D.U.",
Nukewatch.com, January 31, 2003.

16 "Depleted uranium: Dirty bombs, dirty missiles, dirty bullets" by Leuren
Moret, SF Bay View, February 23, 2005.

17 "Iraq: High levels of radioactive pollution seen in the south", Axis of
Logic, November 19, 2004.

18 "The Illegality of DU Weaponry" by Karen Parker, JD, paper prepared for
the International Uranium Weapons Conference in Hamburg, Germany October
16-19, 2003.

http://www.gnn.tv/headlines/1708/Milita ... al_Soldier (http://www.gnn.tv/headlines/1708/Military_Pollution_The_Quintessential_Universal_So ldier)




frosty

[9anda1f]

Douglas J.E. Barnes,

Thank you for your comments! To clarify a little, those thoughts were merely possibilities for the future (long-term), postulated from how I am seeing things at this time. In no way were they intended to be desired outcomes (although Bill Mollison as world emperor would be a good thing!).


We are not getting into space permanently. For one thing, such an undertaking is well beyond the scope of the total world economy. For another, we have nowhere to go. Venus it too hot, Mars too small and distant from the sun, and one cannot live for long in space (cosmic rays, bone loss, etc.) This is our planet. Get used to it.

Seems to me that a similar attitude prevailed prior to Columbus's excursions? My thoughts are that if we could spend the money currently funding warfare, off-planet human colonization (and the associated exploitation of resources) would be much more likely. The US space budget is a mere pittance when compared with military expenditures. I have also read a number of articles recently about scientific solutions for "terraforming". Perhaps below-ground colonies could flourish on the more hostile planets in this solar system. Although you are correct that there are multitudes of challenges, I believe that with basic human urges to explore, increasingly depleted resources here on Earth, and a concentrated focus, they could be overcome. I am heartened to see the private sector beginning to attempt low-orbit travel.

Hard space radiation is a matter of shielding. Bone loss is a matter of zero gravity. I cannot for the life of me imagine why the current space station was not shaped like a hub/spokes/wheel system and "spun". This would have provided a micro-gravity environment in the hub, while offering a gravity-like centrifugal environment in the wheel (standard stuff in science fiction).

Again, all thoughts are offered as possible longer-term future outcomes based on what I can perceive of our current situation here on our spaceship Earth. Your ideas are very thought provoking and I'll continue to mull them through. Thanks again! :D

9anda1f[/quote]

[Mungbeans]

Habeas corpus ad subjiciendum, for example, was not won in battle. It was established under the reign of King Edward I with the first recording of it being 1305.

Actually Habeas corpus has an even earlier origin, originating as ancient Anglo-saxon common law, available as a prerogative writ of the King's court. Although not named as such, habeas corpus was incorporated into Magna Carta in 1215, through the words, "no free man shall be taken or imprisoned or disseised or exiled or in any way destroyed except by the lawful judgment of their peers or by the law of the land." Magna Carta was enacted as a settlement treaty between King John and his barons who had taken up arms against him in protest at his habit of confiscating lands without due process. (I doubt the barons or King John had any idea that their treaty would have such far reaching effects. The barons themselves had far murkier motives, I am sure.)

[Douglas J.E. Barnes]

Douglas J.E. Barnes,

Thank you for your comments! To clarify a little, those thoughts were merely possibilities for the future (long-term), postulated from how I am seeing things at this time. In no way were they intended to be desired outcomes (although Bill Mollison as world emperor would be a good thing!).

What about me for emperor? :wink:

Well, I appreciate your putting the idea forward. That's what forums are for. Someone can present an interesting idea and others can comment or debate that idea.


We are not getting into space permanently. For one thing, such an undertaking is well beyond the scope of the total world economy. For another, we have nowhere to go. Venus it too hot, Mars too small and distant from the sun, and one cannot live for long in space (cosmic rays, bone loss, etc.) This is our planet. Get used to it.


Seems to me that a similar attitude prevailed prior to Columbus's excursions? My thoughts are that if we could spend the money currently funding warfare, off-planet human colonization (and the associated exploitation of resources) would be much more likely.

There are a couple of problems here, I think. First, Columbus (though I'm much more impressed with the navigational feats of South Pacific nations) was not travelling into a vacuum that was totally inhospitable to human life - he was merely following where Asians, Vikings and Portugese fishermen (who were smart enough to keep their mouths shut about great fishing spots) had gone before. To cross an ocean is one thing. To cross half the distance of the Earth to the sun to find a planet that would even be remotely possible for colonisation (one that is too cold, with too thin an atmosphere and with too light a gravity) is quite another thing.

Next, the current world military budget is around $1 trillion USD. To carry out colonisation of Mars would require much, much more than this. And most alarmingly, it would entail the stripping of resources of this planet to gamble on the possibility that another planet might be made habitable. The more sensible and economical approach to take would be to stick with the planet you have and stop ruining it.


Perhaps below-ground colonies could flourish on the more hostile planets in this solar system.

Why bother? We can lead infinitely more enjoyable lives above ground on the planet we have.


Hard space radiation is a matter of shielding. Bone loss is a matter of zero gravity. I cannot for the life of me imagine why the current space station was not shaped like a hub/spokes/wheel system and "spun". This would have provided a micro-gravity environment in the hub, while offering a gravity-like centrifugal environment in the wheel (standard stuff in science fiction).

Shielding needn't be worried about - if we stay on Earth. The Earth has a magnetic field that protects us. Just stay here - it's cheaper and safer.

As for why the ISS wasn't built as a big rotating wheel, it would have been too expensive. The system now is modular and can be expanded, but it's tough to expand a wheel. Also, to be practical, the wheel must be of sufficient radius otherwise your head would notice a significantly different sensation of gravity than your feet. Not a very nice sensation, I'd imagine.

Interesting thoughts, though.

[Douglas J.E. Barnes]

Actually Habeas corpus has an even earlier origin, originating as ancient Anglo-saxon common law, available as a prerogative writ of the King's court. Although not named as such, habeas corpos was incorporated into Magna Carta in 1215, through the words, "no free man shall be taken or imprisoned or disseised or exiled or in any way destroyed except by the lawful judgment of their peers or by the law of the land." Magna Carta was enacted as a settlement treaty between King John and his barons who had taken up arms against him in protest at his habit of confiscating lands without due process. (I doubt the barons or King John had any idea that their treaty would have such far reaching effects. The barons themselves had far murkier motives, I am sure.)

Interesting stuff. Thanks.

[Douglas J.E. Barnes]

The poem about soldiers reminds me of that Monty Python skit in The Meaning of Life:

GENERAL: Well, of course, warfare isn't all fun. Right. Stop that! It's all very well to laugh at the Military, but, when one considers the meaning of life, it is a struggle between alternative viewpoints of life itself, and without the ability to defend one's own viewpoint against other perhaps more aggressive ideologies, then reasonableness and moderation could, quite simply, disappear. That is why we'll always need an army, and may God strike me down were it to be otherwise. (God strikes him down).

SERGEANT: STOP GAWKING!!! HAVE YOU NEVER SEEN THE HAND OF GOD BEFORE?!?!?