Permaculture Design Course - How was yours run?

[Boab]

Hello.

I am currently doing a PDC and as I don't come from a permaculture background I am not sure what to expect. I've read a bit and found that not all courses are the same and I am finding out that through my course too.

So if you don't mind me asking a few questions from those of you that have done one, I would love to read your reply just for the sake of comparison as I am now quite curious as to how things are done elsewhere.

1. How long did your course go for?
2. Where was it held?
3. Do qualified permaculture teachers have to run it?
4. Did you break for public holidays?
5. How was your course structured? (Did it have any structure?)
6. Did you get homework, feedback etc after the lesson or were you left to your own devices?
7. Did you feel you learned a lot?
8. How much did your course cost?
9. Did you feel it was value for money?
10. Would you do it again?

Thank you in advance.

[Boab]

Are the questions too hard or is this something not to be spoken about?
Or should I answer them myself first?

Confused,
Boab :(

[Mungbeans]

Good questions Boab. There is a course at Eumundi that I will definitely be doing once we have moved to Queensland. So I'm curious as well. If you have your own property can you incorporate designing for that property into your course, or is the designing work purely theoretical?

[Boab]

Hi Mungbeans. Thankyou. I can understand why people wouldn't want to answer them and to be fair I have answered them myself with the invitation that people may add what they wish to it. Yes, you can incorporate your property into the course but where I'm doing it, it costs more and all of the design work we have done has been purely theoretical. We did an off site tour but toured people's homes which consisted of disorganised and illegal greywater system, not to mention the dirt and untidiness of the properties we did see. Our "site" chosen for the design module was a student's workplace and we are, as I have learned, essentially giving them a design that the organisation we are learning with is taking payment for. I'm not sure how I feel about that yet. Maybe I'm too old and set in my ways but I expected something very different.

Make of my answers what you will:

1. How long did your course go for?
Course runs for 14 weeks, one day a week. I later learned that the course also included APT students and the general public.

2. Where was it held?
At a community farm in Brisbane.

3. Do qualified permaculture teachers have to run it?
No. Some materials have come from students themselves but about two weeks ago, I discovered that one of our regular teachers does not have a PDC certificate.

4. Did you break for public holidays?
Yes. Three times. Even ANZAC Day, which wasn't anywhere near our designated PDC day.

5. How was your course structured? (Did it have any structure?)
Yes as far as there are two "workshops" per day divided up either side of lunch.
No, in that workshops changed around last minute, there was never a defined lesson plan as such, very little control of the class (people taking calls, going for walks and coming back when they feel like it etc) and they ran more like seminars; ie. person speaks at you. No practical work at all other than a tree planting session…and the mulching by the guest lecturer that day was done backwards.

6. Did you get homework, feedback etc after the lesson or were you left to your own devices?
Left to our own devices. Some of us formed a study group where we'd exchange ideas/input on email which has been a blessing. Even those who have since dropped out of the course have remained with us which is great.

7. Did you feel you learned a lot?
I don't feel I learned anything of great significance really. From what we were given as pertaining to permaculture, I found it to be exactly the same system I was brought up with on the land in Europe many years ago with the learning I did do mainly stemming from adapting this knowledge to the Australian climate. This learning has come largely from books which I researched myself (we were not given a reading list or any learning materials whatsoever apart from the odd single or double sided page on that day's workshop topic) and from what I learned more through my fellow students - some truly amazing characters in that lot. A couple of gits too but I ignore them :)

8. How much did your course cost?
$950.00 on site or $1,150 if you want to use your property to incorporate your design module. There is a sliding scale but the majority of the group are working. The sliding scale has been opposed by some in the group too, citing it as being very unfair, considering that a few of them do accredited permaculture training (APT - an extra $1,100 - $1,400 I think) and volunteers who also work at the community farm for free.


9. Did you feel it was value for money?
Not by a long shot. I have absolutely no idea why it is so expensive and, as some bright spark in the group pointed out to us, if you work it out by workshop price ($30-45), it works out cheaper! We have had quite a few students drop out because of the price not matching the delivery of the course. To be honest, I've only stayed because to leave would not allow me to get a Certificate which would mean essentially losing all that money.

10. Would you do it again? Not with them no. However, I have heard good things about Crystal Waters and other places though so I now regret that I did not do my research before shelling out a lot of money for what I consider to be very little in return.

By the way, I am not bitter about permaculture. I put those questions up to ask whether this was the norm for PDC because, to be honest, I am not all that taken with 'permaculture training' at all. I am a herbalist by trade and training and I think I shall stick to that and what my parents taught me about farming which to my mind is permaculture anyway.

I remain, however, very bitter with the organisation that ran the course and shall not be supporting them any further.

[Tezza]

Hi Boab Gee you expected a quick answer didnt you... :lol:

Unfortuntly not everyone in heres done a course,Its not compulsory either lol.

I been doing Permaculture near 20 yrs now,Done the visits,meeting lots of wonderfull Permies,Grown lotsa fruit n vegies plus mumerous other things,

I would love to take a course,but circumstances havent allways helped in this regard.

Enjoy your course no matter how good,bad,or what ever,most here never get an oppotunity to partake in one.Not everyone here is near a teacher,let alone get one to visit or teach you.Not that im critisising,

Let us know how,what you thought of your course,wed all like to know

Tezza

[Sonya]

Choosing the best pdc is difficult. I have put off doing one for years -
Best advice is to talk to a lot of people about the best pdc. Join a permaculture group and find out what's available.

The ones that have been recommended to me are:

Crystal Waters with Morag Gamble
Crystal Waters with Max Lindegger (?) (he focusses on built environment)
The Food Forest in Adelaide is one of the most highly recommended ones, but unfortunately they don't offer them in blocks of two weeks for interstate people, they run over a series of weekends which is just too inconvenient.

This is not to say any others are bad... just that these kept coming up as recommended.

I'm doing some permaculture study through the great little Chevallum Organic Gardening Club here on the Coast. The course is being run by Janet Millington, who is a well-known permaculture educator. She is offering a PDC at her property at Eumundi in October 2006 for 13 days. The cost is $440 pp without accommodation or food - both will cost you extra. Hopefully I will be able to do that pdc with her.

If you are thinking of going on to teach permaculture - Robin Clayfield at Crystal Waters is the one to do a course with. Her 'Dynamic Groups creative facilitation intensive' is THE course for learning how to teach permaculture. Nearly all the pdc schools recommend her course.

Robin's next course is 10-15th July 2006, which I hope to be at. I think the cost is $795, but don't quote me on that...

[FREE Permaculture]

I was thinking of doing something with local community based permies, where you just rock up and get your hands dirty and learn bits that way.

Wouldn't it be great if all the knowledgable members here divised an online thing here?
like start with step one with the basics and build from there.
dunno but it would be interesting to keep up with a thread that was designed for begginers and lead up to advanced theories that we could learn at our own pace and implement things we learn in our own backyards.

sorta like a permaculture for dummies course :)

[Mungbeans]

The course is being run by Janet Millington, who is a well-known permaculture educator. She is offering a PDC at her property at Eumundi in October 2006 for 13 days. The cost is $440 pp without accommodation or food - both will cost you extra. Hopefully I will be able to do that pdc with her.

Sonya, this is the course I am thinking of doing. I'm particularly interested as it includes incorporating aquaculture into the designs. Could you please let us know how it goes?

In the meantime I'm trying to read the Designers Manual by Bill Mollison. Its borrowed from my brother, who did Permaculture as part of his horticultural degree. Which brings me to:


We did an off site tour but toured people's homes which consisted of disorganised and illegal greywater system, not to mention the dirt and untidiness of the properties we did see.

Boab, were these sites presuming to showcase permaculture? If so, that is depressing. One of my brother's biggest complaints about the way permaculture is practiced by many (and he is a big fan) is that many ignore aesthetics. Utility is important but beauty is food for the soul.

[Boab]

Tezza, I thought what I wrote pretty much spelled out what I think of my course. Did you want me to expand on this?

Aesthetics in permaculture? Not with this lot. Not that it was a huge concern to me, though. My concern lay with the illegality of the systems moreso than the look, particularly the precariousness of some of them. I am of the opinion that condoning the premise "you can do what you want because it's permaculture" isn't a good way to go.

As for a PDC, I'm not planning to do any more non-accredited training under the permaculture banner. There is accredited training run by TAFE which I will look into but I'm afraid what I've seen with this organisation and a few others is that it's far too 'lax' for my liking.

As for getting your hands dirty, that's why I chose to do it at a community farm!! But all people seem to enjoy doing is talking about it which for some students, this just isn't adequate.

I am interested to read that one does not have to be a qualified teacher in order to teach. I was just reading a thread on this forum that clearly states that you do. And it was certainly the impression that I and others in my class were given prior to starting the course. But I hasten to add that I'm not necessarily a 'qualification nazi', but I do expect a decent background coupled with an assessable skills base that can be held accountable. It's just not enough to say, "Well I've done this and that for five years..." To be taken seriously, you have to be able to back up what you have. As for learning how to teach permaculture, group dynamic facilitation is not teacher education. Pardon me for saying so but I think that, in addition to the PDC course itself, is another moneymaking gimmick.

I am not attacking anyone personally, just stating my opinion and this is how I see it.

Thank you for your answers. Most appreciated.

[Mike_E_from_NZ]

Utility is important but beauty is food for the soul.

Oh boy, this one is sure to get the masses arguing. You could fill Murray's server space with the different views.

If it has lots of life going on then nature thinks it is just fine. If you can also eat and live from it, then Bill Mollison would call it Permaculture. If it is also (and very definitely lastly and leastly) pleasing to your particular eye, then good on you.

I recall one of Bill's books dismissing tidiness as the morbid desire to control and subdue by someone who lacks creativity. That is very definitely paraphrased - so please feel free to correct me. He was equally dismissive in the flesh.

Mike

[Mungbeans]

Boab, you sound pretty p* off. Not that I blame you considering the cost of the course you did. I'll certainly be asking a lot of questions now before I sign up for my course now!

[Boab]

Nooooooo…I'm not pissed off. Well not in an explosive, vindictive, snipy way anyway. :lol: I'm just assertive when it comes to writing something down, particularly when it concerns being hoodwinked.

But I do admit that when I think of the money and effort I've made for a course that just hasn't made the grade, I admit part of me wants to shout out "caveat emptor!!" from the rooftops to other unsuspecting permaculturists/farmers like me. (That's "buyer beware!" for those of you too young to remember the compulsory Latin classes at school.)

I agree with the earlier statement about beauty. Most people who dismiss order as being a freakish penchant for control are usually those who can't do it or can't understand it because it does require a certain amount of flair. A modicum of order is necessary in our everyday lives. This ensures that tasks are completed and we live in a healthy way ensuring our survival (take a look at anarchic events - nothing is achieved). But I think beauty is food for the soul and I do see beauty in permaculture - just not in the PDC.

[Mungbeans]

The most productive garden I ever saw was the one tended by my grandmother in Lithgow. She immigrated from Scotland with her husband who was injured working in the mines. They were poor, barely scraping by on a invalid pension. The only fertiliser she used was the manure she got free from friends with nearby farms. And yet every time we visited we came away with a car boot full of veges. I still remember it as a place of beauty and wonder. I remember as a child stealing carrots out of the ground and then hiding in the arbour behind the rose garden to eat them.

I can just imagine her response to any praise of untidiness. I wish I had a fraction of her creativity. If there was anyone who had an excuse to spurn flower gardens and arbours as useless frippery it was her. But I know her flowers sustained her soul as much as her vegetables sustained her body.

[christopher]

Hi Boab,

I am sorry to hear trhat you did not get a good course, and that it left you unsatisfied. The course you took sounds incredibly dysfunctional, and is not like the courses I have been involved with.

I took a PDC in 1992, and it was a life changing/paradigm shifting experience for me. The teachers were Rick Valley, Jose Caballero, Michael Pilarski and Chuck Marsh. It was a two week cocurse, with accomodation at a farm down the river from us.

The course followed a loose assortment of topics that NEEDED tobe covered, but as all of the teachers were coming from all over the US and Mexico,and this was pre email (how did we ever survive with out it? Hahahaha) they had to come up with a curriculum as the course rolled! That sounds worse than it was, as the teachers and info were great!

The PDC I took was profoundly life changing, and is perhaps the most well spent two weeks of my life. I have said this many times, but considering the price of a piece of land, the price of the mental tool kit a good PDC gives you will make your land more valuable quickly!

In February, we hosted a PDC here, but, ulike the course I took, we had half of the participants from Belize, 7 of whome were funded by Protected Areas Conservation Trust, and two of whom our NGO funded directly. The Belizeans were from Community Based Organizations and NGOs that work in development and agriculture, and we also had two attendees from Ministry of Agriculture, so the info has the capablity to be very broadly disseminated. The mixture of Belizeands, Americans Canadians and the lone Brit made the course more interesting for all of the particpants, which I think added a lot to the course.

We did not teach it (other than I did a big part of the agroforestry session, since that is my area of competence, and I also did part of the renewable energy discussion, and used existing systems to show the technologies), and mostly facilitated the course, providing good organic farm fresh food, keeping the toilets stocked with sawdust and TP, keeping the coffee mugs full, etc.

The teachers were Toby Hemenway and Penny Livingston, who were btoh excellent teachers, and I learned a lot from watching them teach, during those intervals when dishes didn't need washed, or some otherpressing infrastructural need wasn't screaming my name.

They had a very tight curriculum, with an extremely well planned set of lessons, and an engaging demeanour in the classroom. Judging from the written feedback we got after the course, they students were all very satisfied with the teaching, and also with the food and accomodations (huge relief to us as we had never had that many peopple for two whole weeks).

The success if the course, and it was a huge success, lies in no small part because we were well prepared and well staffed with a good mx of volunteers and locals in the kitchen ( Allegra, Jocelyn and Anne Sophie, Amara and Miss Cenovia, if you read this, you are wonderful!), in large part because the teachers were simply outstanding, well prepared, enthusiastic and excited, and, perhaps this is the biggest part of all, the attendees were a truly fantastic bunch, excited, appreciative and interested (and interesting!). We simply could not have gotten better people to takke the course. There were tears at the end of the course, and everyone felt really good.

Moving on to your questions, and ansered with a) for the course I attended in 1992, and b) for the course we hosted:


1. How long did your course go for?
Both courses were 14 days.

2. Where was it held?
Both were held on farms on the Columbia Branch of Rio Grande, up river from San Pedro Columbia.

3. Do qualified permaculture teachers have to run it?
a) Not sure. The first course was long ago.....
b) Yes, both Penny and Toby have some sort of certification.

4. Did you break for public holidays?
No

5. How was your course structured?
a) Two weeks worth of courses, with field work and some farm cvisits. Lots of classroom and hands on time
b) Two weeks worth of courses, with field work and some farm cvisits. Lots of classroom and hands on time

6. Did you get homework, feedback etc after the lesson or were you left to your own devices?
a & b: A little of both in both classes. The students broke up into groups to make designs for several areas on MMRFs land, which is all theoretical, tho it was good for us to see the farm through other perspectives.

7. Did you feel you learned a lot?
a) I was washed over with info. I tried to absorb it all, but.... luckily I kept notes!
b) The students all said the course was really informative and valuable

8. How much did your course cost?
a)USD500
b)USD1200


9. Did you feel it was value for money?
a) Absolutely. For anyone buying land, the small price of a course will be made up for by avoided mistakes in land use (my hypothesis, anyway)
b) I hope so! Everyone said it was in their evaluations.

10. Would you do it again?
a) Absolutely
b) We have a course scheduled for February/March of next year!

I hope that was helpful!

Best,

C

[Sonya]

Hey Mungbeans,

I'll let you know how Janet's course goes. I haven't been out to her property, but I know she has a permaculture crayfish farm, so I guess it will focus a lot on aquaculture.

Aquaculture isn't really my main focus - but we do have two dams and I have been to one of Janet's lectures on aquaculture and came home all inspired!

I think a forum like this is a great way to find out what things are really like. The good and the bad. Each pdc will have slightly different focus though, depending on the experience of the teacher and the property it is conducted on. So you can choose one that 1) is close to home, 2) the right price, 3) conveniently timed 4) recommended or 5) has an emphasis on something that interests you in particular.

I'm doing a course with Janet at the moment every Saturday, it can go toward permaculture quals, but it is not a pdc.

Most of my study so far has been with Jade Woodhouse - she doesn't do a pdc as such, but covers things like intro to permaculture, organic vegie growing, chook care, food forests, composting, worm farming, green manure crops etc etc etc etc.

I do plan to do Janet's october course to gain pdc certification to perhaps start teaching in the future, and I imagine I will end up doing more than one pdc in my lifetime, as a lot of people seem to do.

Cheers,

[Mungbeans]

Sonya, thanks. Your reply is very encouraging. I showed the link about the PDA course at Eumundi to my husband several days ago. Its definitely on the agenda, once we find our property. We've fallen in love with Pomona, so that's our dream..

[Boab]

Why would you do more than one PDC course when you have the qualification in the first place? It's like repeating a grade over and over again. You don't further yourself. By all means go on and do further levels in permaculture as there's certificate courses from level 1 to 4 but repeating the PDC seems ludicrous to me.

Well as far as courses go, Christopher, it looks as though I landed a stinker. Nowhere nearly as organised as your group appeared to be. I note the class is low in number too. Our classes are large (or were, until people started dropping out) - some twenty five students or so.

As for tidiness, well I believe it says a lot about a person. It tells you that they are organised both in thinking and doing. It tells you they care about things, about themselves. It also often marks the merit of their expertise in an area as well as their conduct. Even contrary to the notion that artists' studios are traditionally chaotic, I would invite you to look closer and with a good artist you will find order, right down to the very last brush.

[Sonya]

Hey Mungbeans,

Pomona is a great place (we are just at Eudlo) and Cooroy would be worth a look too. Plenty of permie contacts up here so you will be able to establish networks pretty quickly. Permaculture Noosa is based at Cooroy and there are lots of PETS days up that way (permaculture energy transfer days - where a load of people go to one place and get a major project done for the owners)

As for doing more than one pdc. I've got a lot of years of permaculture ahead of me and a lot to learn. As I said, PDCs offer different focus, so as I learn more I'd probably want to expand my knowledge. I'm a big believer in learning a lot of different ways from a lot of different people.

You can never learn too much! and you always make good contacts too...

Cheers,
Sonya

[kathleenmc]

hi Boab...here's my bit....

1. How long did your course go for?

2 weeks with a one day break in the middle

2. Where was it held?

Bega Valley NSW

3. Do qualified permaculture teachers have to run it?

Yes....qualified teachers who have the Permaculture institute's endorsement are the only people who can offer you a certificate as far as I am aware of.

5. How was your course structured? (Did it have any structure?)

We learnt from 9-5 everyday and had several different sessions each day...it was mind boggling for me...my brain hurt a lot....

6. Did you get homework, feedback etc after the lesson or were you left to your own devices?v

No

7. Did you feel you learned a lot?

Absolutely but then for me it was not enough!!!! Went and did and APT course for a whole year to get what I wanted....

8. How much did your course cost?

$750 with 250 LETS componant and food during the day

9. Did you feel it was value for money?

Absolutely

10. Would you do it again?

Yep...actually it is good to go and join in on other PDC's if you can so you can learn different techniques and approaches from people...if you've done a course before you can negotiate price with the next course (sometimes for free!)....different climates also have different approaches as well....


I'm wondering if you're talkiing about Northey st in Brsbane Boab? It's a shame if it is the one you are talking about as my experience with them has been positive, but I wasn't doing a course. I hope you gave them some constructive feedback as it is good to let people know what works and doesn't work for you as it is a way of keeping on improving the system...

Cheers Kathleen

[bazman]

I'm about half way on the beer can canoe Chris, now where's that other sixpack gone...... It's on my wish list to travel around South America ending up doing my PDC with you guys, that would be so cool.

Question with the course, do those running the course set extra subjects? like eco housing design or how to graft a tree, that sort of thing? or is the course set in what is taught.

[ho-hum]

Boab,

You are correct to point out your frustrations.

I ran an organisation [as president] which ran a permie course for about 8 'outsiders' we sold participation to and about 8 skillshare students and staff in about 89 or 90.

Sadly, I was working full-time and running a camp cooks course at the same time. I certainly hovered around the permies at odd times.

Some things I remember.

Every morning was 'outside' and after lunch for a while they were all inside looking at systems etc and using teaching aids.

The first morning they collected mulch/compost materials and made a massive compost heap with a view to using it 2 weeks later. The compost heap was built in FRONT of the building as the back was going to be used.... I can remember grinning at the time and thinking I liked that idea.


2 huge garden beds were dug mulched and planted including one 'no-dig' garden, a mandela garden was set up, a herb garden was planted. All as part of the course. As best I can remember students were asked to source all sorts of things - manure, plant material etc. which was collected by the group from all over the place.

The gardens were located by the students with the lecturer continually asking why here, what for, where is the water coming from, where is it going, what about that fence, tree, post, wall etc etc When it was decided that all factors considered one long garden across the middle of the back was good. The lecturer then started talking about zones, microclimates, edges etc. which were new concepts and again made the students think.

Eventually half the lawn went to vegie gardens and half was kept as an open area.

The course teacher was pragmatic enough to interrupt his lessons to bring the group to where I was and watch our lesson. I had asked a butcher to bring a hind quarter of beef around and cut it up for my group into a variety of pieces. The permie lecturer [ that afternoon] talked about permaculture animals and their uses. This included the usual plus rabbits, quail and kangaroo. I seem to think the lecturer was a vegetarian too.

I cannot remember who the lecturer was or what it cost but I do know the participants included all sorts from a mentally handicapped guy to a millionaire. They all achieved and enjoyed.

I can remember wondering where we were going to buy sprinklers and hoses etc as we were really broke. One of the town's rogues dropped off a couple of excellent sprinklers and stands. I thought it was generous of him. Some time later I noticed they were stamped with the local council's initials. After a phone call to them they were officially on loan to us with a stern warning on 'borrowing' things without people's permission.

Those gardens went fine but we couldnt over-indulge as the site was an old fire station and only on loan till the government sold it.

I know permaculture became a way of life for at least 6 of the participants [plus me].

floot

[FREE Permaculture]

That's all very interesting floot, but what did you end up doing with the beef? did ya's have like a big bbq? was there champagne and topless blondes? :lol:

[Boab]

Thank you for your continued replies. It is truly marvellous to see people getting a positive outcome from a PDC. I still don't see the logic in repeating courses, though. Practical experience reinforces learning particularly with the basics covered in the PDC I would have thought. Still, if you can negotiate something for free then that's great.

Kathleen, I did not say I was having a bad experience all round. I know it's easy to lump everything into one but my comments are only about the course. I have had a very long association with farming and community groups, particularly this one, and there are some truly marvellous people about (and I must say, most of them don't run the courses). But in all honesty I have noticed some pretty nasty mongrel energy moving about for the past year or so but that's not something I wish to make further comment on.

As for constructive feedback, I shall give you examples. I have made comments regarding the lack of cohesion in the classes. I received a nod and an 'okay' but that was about it. Another student mentioned as part of a feedback session how he/she did not feel that there was much substance to what was being taught and another student made a cheap remark to them that went uncorrected. This student left the course. Another ex-student I ran into stated that he/she 'voted for his/her feet' frustrated by the lack of service. And just recently another student whom I regarded very dearly decided to leave, disillusioned with the entire place. Two other students who have done more for the place in a short time than the majority of the long termers put together with their energy and knowledge and valuable insight are also considering leaving. So yes, feedback has been provided 'leaders' (I use that term for want of a better one) with details of our dissatisfaction and from what I gather it has been dismissed.

Writing this down really weighs heavy on my heart. I started this thread to find out whether the PDC was any good but I am seeing that it's not the course so much but the people involved in it. I don't know which feels worse: realising this or realising that there is nothing I can do about it.

[permanut]

Hey Boab, I hear you loud and clear I have similar dissapointed feelings.
I think any PDC should be 50/50 of practical and theory.
The teacher and students together as one group should breif the client, make a site assesment and collectively contribute to a design that is actually implemented in the real world.Of course systems need maintaining, the PDC tutor should have deigned for this. in order to give something back for the over inflated prices that they often charge. The course should be designed to follow ALL of the 12 principles, theoretically and practically.

Students also should be able to observe actual working systems that are self sustaining. Not dilapidated crumbling,dirty disorganised ones. I would'nt dream of setting up a PDC unless I could deliver the above.
I know alot of people that have done PDC's and all they seem to come away with is a few handouts, copied straight out the designers manual.

I feel alot of PDC courses are energy sinks. To much talking not enough action. All that people energy and financial energy should be considered carefully in the course design. Anyone can just copy out of a book. Lets hopefully start seeing a bit more Permaculture Principles actually being considerd in the course itself.

I have had good reports from people that have done PDC's with Robyn Francis, Geoff Lawton, Rick and Naomi Coleman and the other Robin at crystal waters. I will most prob. do one with one them at somepoint.

[RobWindt]

Did the pdc with rick and naomi and have nothing but praise for them, good people who put their heart and soul into it
http://www.southerncrosspermaculture.com.au/

eco village design with robyn francis was another life changing course
http://www.earthwise.org.au/

robin clayfield at crystal waters trains the trainers
mailto:robin@earthcare.com.au

[christopher]

Bazman,

The teachers we had here, Tony and Penny, devoted most of one day to talk about natural building. They were both realy well informed, and their presentations were super interesting (and included slide shows in the evening that were fascinating).

I think that a good teacher will expand on areas of interest, and Toby and Penny were great! They spent a lot of time between classes and field trips to farms talking with individual students (really first rate teachers, I have a lot of respect for both of them).

Boab, you ask why take the course a second time.... Part of why people I know who have taken a second (or even third) PDC is leaving charged up, and a second course may expose you to things not taught at the first course, as well as giving you more time to go over the core curriculum.

I have heard here that several people have taken two courses, tho I have not. I would, gladly, as I think it would be interesting, and part of that would be observing different teachers teaching method.

Ben, hahahahahaah! You very, very wicked!

C

[Richard on Maui]

Boab, it seems like you are particularly disstisfied with your experience of the PDC at the community farm in Brisbane that you have attended? Can I suggest that you would do well to write a letter to the organisers of the course explaining how you felt? It may encourage them to lift their game or make them realise that perhaps they aren't the gurus they wannabe.
Also, you could send the same letter to the Permaculture Institute

THE PERMACULTURE INSTITUTE
31 Rulla Road
SISTERS CREEK 7325
TASMANIA
AUSTRALIA

Ph: 61 (0)3 6445 0945
Fax: 61 (0)3 6445 0944

For Book Sales: sales@tagari.com
For general adminstration: admin@tagari.com
For Permaculture Insitute: admin@tagari.com
Our office is normally attended on Mondays, Tuesdays and Wednesdays
from 9.00 am until 4.30 pm Australian Eastern Standard Time.

They are the people who are supposed to officially sanction the issuing of PDC's. If your course was not ridgy didge, or simply below par, I would expect them to take some kind of action.

Thirdly, why not actually speak up about which community garden is offering the apparently bogus course? It may help other prospective students avoid similar dissappointment and be a reminder to the course holders of the need to improve.

[ho-hum]

Ben,

Yes, all was eaten. Some was steak'd, some was brined/corned, some was minced etc.

As for the other... it was a camp cooks course, not about guilds.

floot

[christopher]

Ben,

Floot didn't answer your last question....

C

[Boab]

Richard, I am doing my course at Northey Street City Farm in Brisbane. One thing I have noticed very clearly there is that people do not take kindly to criticism no matter how well meant and, admittedly, I have not written a letter because my vocal concerns were so readily dismissed and also because I want to finish the course and get my certificate without any further hassle. Do you think the Permaculture Institute has any clout?

Permanut I have leafed through the myriad of handouts I received on my course and 70% are straight copies from Mollison's designer handbook or other similar books. One or two handouts were written by fellow students (but presented by the teacher). Practical work consisted of a tour around the farm looking for plants and a few hours setting up a garden that was then just left to the elements and is now looking rather tired indeed. I admit I do not understand some design elements. I still have not seen a real life swale. In the books they appear to be much like what were called 'steppes' in my childhood. Just reading Christopher's experience of natural building colours me green with envy. Our module was three hours in length, the lecturer said straight up he wasn't prepared and we proceeded to wander around the farm in groups looking for natural building structures and working out designs for them. I still don't understand what that was all about. I immediately referred to Bill's designer handbook to get the gist of it. I also find Rosemary Morrow's books very informative and easy to digest too.

I am glad that what I have had to say here has been taken so well. It has also made me feel a lot better with the feelings that I have harboured for a while now. I will copy the references for other PDC courses left here and have a look at them with a view to "having another go" at a later stage.

Thank you all :love4:

[Sonya]

Boab,

It's a shame you've had such a bad experience, but at least others are warned and perhaps it might spark Northey St into getting organised. I haven't been there for years now, but I had heard anecdotally that it was run down. It's a shame and I hope they can get it back on track because we need those resources and education programs to run exceptionally well and to a high standard, especially in cities where they have contact with so many people.

And I thought all pdc teachers had to have completed a pdc themselves?

Even a bad course teaches you things - seeing how not to do something is just as important as seeing how to do it well.

Sonya.

[Sonya]

Picked up a flyer at World Environment Day on the Sunshine Coast.

SEED International, based at Crystal Waters Permaculture Village near Maleny, have a hands-on permaculture workshop running Sept 30-Oct 1 this year.

Includes:
design, village tour, water-wise design conservation and harvesting, waste-water recycling, soil improvement, composting, worm-farming, low maintainence no-dig kitchen garden, seed saving & propogation, establishing a food forest and more...

$295 includes all food (all organic), accommodation and comprehensive notes

Run by: Morag Gamble and Evan Raymond.

info@SEEDinternational.com.au

[ecodharmamark]

G'day Boab :)

1. How long did your course go for?

2 weeks

2. Where was it held?

Bendigo (Victoria, Australia)

3. Do qualified permaculture teachers have to run it?

Don't know and personally, don't care. After conducting research for about 5-years I was satisfied that the course I had chosen would meet all my needs (and in doing the course found that it not only satisfied, but exceeded all my expectations).

5. How was your course structured? (Did it have any structure?)

Yes, well structured. Early starts and working well into the night on some occasions. Ample time for breaks and periods of contemplation or group discussion. Varied modes of delivery from theoretical tutorials through to site visits, and everything you could inmagine in between.

6. Did you get homework, feedback etc after the lesson or were you left to your own devices?

Yes, 'homework' (most of our design task was completed outside of tutorials) and plenty of feedback - all one had to do was engage fellow students and teachers and ask for it.

7. Did you feel you learned a lot?

More than enough.

8. How much did your course cost?

Cost me nothing: Cost the Government $950.00

9. Did you feel it was value for money?

I would have personally 'paid' (most likely by labour exchange) up to five times this amount. Seriously, money could not 'buy' the experiences and learning outcomes I took away from that course.

10. Would you do it again?

Of course. Each course is a different experience. Each course is an opportunity to learn something new. But above all, each course brings together people from vastly different backgrounds but each with a common goal to make the world a better place.

I have included a link to a course blurb which includes a further link to a flyer from an earlier course which was pretty much the same as the one I completed last year.

http://www.permaculture.biz/SalvosPDC/home.htm

I hope this information helps you in some way, and I hope your learning experience can eventually give you much peace and satisfaction.

Cheerio,

Mark.

[Richard on Maui]

does the permaculture institute have any clout? well, I would be interested to know what kind of certificate they issue you upon completion of your course.
my certificate was issued by the permaculture institute, and signed off on by my teacher. I believe that this is how the system is supposed to work globally, with the various regional institutes.
it is very possible that I am under another misapprehension regarding this detail of bills masterplan. please, someone correct me if I am wrong.

so, who is running the show at northey st now? Dick Copeman, Richard Nielson and John Morahan, still? What about Tash Morton? Those guys actually do have a wealth of knowlege and experience to share. I would be suprised if a course they offered was really all that ratshit.

[heuristics]

Hi Boab,,,, At the risk of echoing what R-on-M has said .... check out Bill Mollison's website at Tagari...

For others following this post - i have cut and pasted two bits fromthat website that show PDCs are supposed to be of a certain standard and taught by people with a PDC themselves to ensure QA - quality assurance.... Take your issues to Tagari...

From the Tagari site.....

Permaculture Design Course
We are living on a planet in crisis; often individuals feel powerless to effect change but Permaculture offers positive solutions to the problems facing the world; using ecology as the basis for designing integrated systems of food production, housing, technology and community development, you can learn to create a self-sustaining environment, on a farm or in your urban backyard.

The Permaculture Design Course is for anyone interested in gaining skills and perspective for sustainable living and productivity. A Permaculture Design Course is a way to share accumulated information with others.

What is Permaculture?

Permaculture is an holistic approach to land use design, based on ecological principles and patterns. Permaculture aims to create stable, productive systems that provide for human needs, harmoniously integrating the land with people. The ecological processes of plants, animals, water, weather and nutrient cycles are integrated with human needs and technologies for food, energy, shelter and infrastructure.

Elements in a system are viewed in relationship with other elements, and the outputs of one element become the inputs of another.

Within a Permaculture system, work is minimised, “wastes” become resources, productivity and yields increase, and the environment is restored.

Permaculture principles can be applied to any environment, at any scale - from dense urban settlements to individual homes, from farms to entire regions.

Who would benefit from a Permaculture Design Course?

Since the first Permaculture Design Course was offered in 1972, people from widely diverse backgrounds and interests have graduated. Farmers, ranchers, landowners, foresters, landscape designers, architects, builders, planners, developers, accountants, financiers, bankers, publishers, attorneys, aid workers, educators, environmentalists and students have all brought Permaculture techniques into their homes, businesses and communities.

This course is for anyone interested in gaining practical skills and perspective for sustainable living and productivity. You will gain an understanding of Permaculture theory, building your knowledge of all the necessary aspects to become fully conversant with Permaculture design. By the end of the course, you will be able to confidently create your first Permaculture design plan.

The Curriculum

The curriculum is all subjects in Permaculture: A Designer’s Manual, by Bill Mollison.

Topics covered include:

design methods
understanding patterns in nature
climatic factors
water
soils
earthworks and their use in earth repair
techniques and design strategies for both urban and rural applications
the temperate climates
dry lands
cold climates
humid cool climates
humid tropics
trees and their energy transactions
aqua-culture
waste management
energy efficient architecture
legal strategies and trusts
effective working groups
right livelihood
money and finance
ethical investment
bio-regional organisation
effective aid
Recommended Reading:

Permaculture: A Designer’s Manual, Bill Mollison

Introduction to Permaculture, Bill Mollison with R. Slay

Permaculture Two, Bill Mollison

The Foundation Year Book of the Permaculture Academy, compiled by Bill Mollison

More Information?

See the Permaculture Institute’s Teacher Register pages for more information and for a listing of Teachers Registered with the Permaculture Institute.

[Alex M]

Chickadee said:


Wouldn't it be great if all the knowledgable members here divised an online thing here?
like start with step one with the basics and build from there.
dunno but it would be interesting to keep up with a thread that was designed for begginers and lead up to advanced theories that we could learn at our own pace and implement things we learn in our own backyards.

sorta like a permaculture for dummies course

Hey, what a great idea Ben! Why not use the resource we all have right in front of us, right here, right now? That's what's this forum's for after all, isn't it? Boab, because you decided to ask a question and start this thread, anyone anywhere in the world (who can get on the net) can get an idea of what to look out for when choosing a PDC; they'll also know what to expect from the teachers. In my opinion, you've made an important contribution.

The other day, I posted a request for info on Guilds, because I reckon Guilds are a key element to the whole design thing. The thread has already attracted some great ideas, some of which I will use, and others I can't use (oh, those pineapples! :love7: ), but other readers surely will.

Although I've done a PDC (Melb, Sept '05) I'm still a Permaculture dummy - there's so much to learn - and I'm looking for all sorts of stuff. I have no doubt there are plenty like me. Anyone who has information to share, or a question to ask can start a thread.

[Tezza]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I thi nk hes got it.

Pity about how us mere humans are never quit satisfied.Ive never had time or moeneyto do a course let alone find anyone who caters for Individuals

Count your luck with any info free or paid Ive learnt 99% by doing it..I never had a bulliten board..Let alone people answering for nothing....

If some one was advocating Permaculture,and teaching thats what matters....It musta inspired you still....Your in here :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ...

I dont have any certificates,But then again I dont charge,YOU dont allways get what you pay for as you say

Tezza

[murray]

hey guys


Wouldn't it be great if all the knowledgable members here divised an online thing here? like start with step one with the basics and build from there. dunno but it would be interesting to keep up with a thread that was designed for begginers and lead up to advanced theories that we could learn at our own pace and implement things we learn in our own backyards. sorta like a permaculture for dummies course

well - i had an idea a couple months back to put together an open source permaculture users manual with help from all you smart folk...

[edit - i feel i should make clear that the idea to use a wiki for this was not mine. it was given to me via PM by a member of this board, ben i think? i can't remember and the PMs were nuked looong ago. so - credit where it's due.]

i even registered a domain for it: http://www.permapedia.com

if you guys are interested in helping me compile it , as chick said, starting with the basics and moving on from there, this might be the perfect opportunity to create something very unique. (just click the edit link on any page to update that page's content)

what do you think?

m.

[Richard on Maui]

I am not suggesting this in opposition to your permipedia idea at all Murray, but I have often thought that it is a shame that one cannot access the Designers Manual online. I once travelled around Northern Thailand by bicycle with a fellow student from my PDC, Weerayoot Pansuwan. He carried the Designers Manual, and other references to remote villages in his panniers (god he was so slow, had to keep stopping at roadside stalls to wait for him to catch up!) to assist him in his design when he got to places. Ok, so Yoot is one of a kind, but I am sure that the manual would be of inestimable use as on online resource.
Not to poohpooh the idea of compiling something new, but there isn't a lot of territory that isn't given pretty thorough treatment in the manual already.
I don't actually know how to do it, but it would be straight forward to scan the pages and save them as pdf files right? or even make them into html? Of course, Bill would have to be agreeable. Surely his 3rd ethic sort of corners him into acquiescence though, I would have thought?[/i]

[Mungbeans]

well - i had an idea a couple months back to put together an open source permaculture users manual with help from all you smart folk...

i even registered a domain for it: http://www.permapedia.com


Very nice, Murray!

Perhaps you make the community portal a link back to the portal for this site. It seems a shame to spread it all too thin. Apart from that I can see the potential.

You could even add a 'Wiki' link to the buttons at the top of this forum.

Perhaps everyone could take their favourite entry from this forum, edit it and post it over there. There is so much great information it would be good to see it properly sorted and distilled.

[murray]

hi,


Perhaps you make the community portal a link back to the portal for this site. It seems a shame to spread it all too thin. Apart from that I can see the potential.

yes, the aim is to link everywhere from that site. really spread the love around. it needs to be a good resource that you'd like to come back to again and again.


You could even add a 'Wiki' link to the buttons at the top of this forum.

done!


Perhaps everyone could take their favourite entry from this forum, edit it and post it over there. There is so much great information it would be good to see it properly sorted and distilled.

fantastic idea. is anyone else up for doing this too? (bear in mind that it needs to be your own content you're using.)


Not to poohpooh the idea of compiling something new, but there isn't a lot of territory that isn't given pretty thorough treatment in the manual already. I don't actually know how to do it, but it would be straight forward to scan the pages and save them as pdf files right? or even make them into html? Of course, Bill would have to be agreeable. Surely his 3rd ethic sort of corners him into acquiescence though, I would have thought?

well - that would be the ultimate, wouldn't it? :) but after working with tagari for a little while i can tell you that selling books is their bread and butter. i'm pretty sure that they're not going to be happy with people - even us - posting digital copies of their Bible up on the net for free use, no matter how good-intentioned our motivation.

i think we can create something better though. we already have the best permaculture forum and collection of people on the 'net. i think we can create a wonderful, open, accessible and lasting permaculture Bible of our own that's free for use and download by anyone! what's more, anyone can edit it too and add articles, on anything they think relevant.

so - anyone who's keen, head over to the Permapedia (link's in the menu above) and click the edit link on any page you want to add info to. i'm going to create a new thread (http://forums.permaculture.org.au/viewtopic.php?p=19560#19560) now just for the permapedia. see y'all over there. 8)

cheerio

[Boab]

I would be suprised if a course they offered was really all that ratshit.

There is always one.
Richard I did not say the course was ratshit nor infer it. 'That's your opinion and an opinion, I might add, for a course you've never attended.

The purpose for this thread - which now appears to have rambled off topic - was to emphasise that I am seeking understanding through questioning and highlighting rather than resorting to what appears to be a popular method when criticism is involved: pointing the finger.

We are being issued with proper PDC certificates endorsed by the Permaculture Institute.

You cite names and yes, I would agree that all are experienced. But it's one thing to bear a wealth of knowledge. To be able to pass it on is another thing entirely.

One thing a lot of people misunderstand about teaching is that it's easy to do. The next is that anyone can do it. Not true. There's a reason why teachers in this country are registered by the Board of Education including trade groups such as hairdressers (who attend teacher's college for twelve months on top of their collected experience), TAFE instructors and anyone in a govt accredited course. Not that I want to be embroiled in red tape but formalised training for a definitive length of time to a standard set of guidelines run by an organisation that regularly enforces these guidelines is there for a very good reason. And the lack of this really does show up in a PDC.

This is not to suggest that all permaculture teachers are ratshit either. That is not the point I am trying to illustrate.

What I am saying is that there is no sufficient teacher education in permaculture to warrant the title of teacher with the exception of accredited permaculture courses run by TAFE. The instructors there have to have formal teaching qualifications accredited by the State and they are periodically assessed on performance.

The lack of this standard blatantly shows itself on my current PDC.

So yes, I'd like to know whether the Permaculture Institute has any clout.

[Richard on Maui]

Well, if enough course participants report back to Bill and Lisa that Northey St are doing "ratshit" courses, (sorry, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, that was simply my interpretation of your evaluation - what word would you use?) then I would bet my left big toenail that they would stop issuing the certificates until such a time that their confidence in the teachers and the course structure was renewed.
Of course, different styles of teaching and learning work for different people. I remember attending a workshop on wormfarming held by Richard Nielson at NSCF, in which he was very lyrical in his description of the biology of worms and their role in soil health and by extension planetary life in general. I was transfixed. I have been a participant in many wormfarming workshops, and thought I didn't really have anything else to learn. "Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now."

Do you think that the rest of your course's participants were similarly let down? If so, you really should take the time to communicate your dissatisfaction to the management of NSCF, and the Institute, in my opinion.

Murray, Bill and Lisa's bread and butter surely should come from their potato patch and their rhubarb corner. Whatever happened to "Share the surplus" eh? What do we have in surplus at this moment, if not knowlege? What do we need to do with that knowlege at this critical point in history but share it?

Fair enough, when Bill first published that book the internet was a twinkling in Al Gore's buddies eye. Binding books and trucking them around the planet was necessary then, and it costs money, so he had to charge. Since then, the earth has gotten even more rooted, (excuse language) and that book is more important than ever. We have the means to make it available in 3rd world countries or anywhere else instantaneously. If we don't take advantage of that technology we aren't serious about responding to the crisis.

I would pay another $50 if I could download it whenever I need it. I would probably pay $50 every 5 years just to have access to it without carrying it around. I reckon Yoot Pansuwan and his ilk should get it for free.

[murray]

couldn't agree more richard.

[Alex M]

(sorry, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, that was simply my interpretation of your evaluation - what word would you use?)

Richard, how about "dissapointing"? or "not up to expectation"? 8)

Murray, how about a format that cross-references the information on the wiki to the manual? That is, say I'm reading Basic Essentials for the Equitorial House - cool storage strategies, on p265. I want to know more about it, and see how others have applied the theory, so I go to the wiki and look it up. No need to infringe copyright. In fact, it would boost sales of the manual, I reckon. The one supposrts the other, like a guild. Both benefit, and the user, too.

Also, maybe it's time Bill considered a CD rom version of the Manual?

[Alex M]

...... with hypertext and relevant web liks. :wink:

[Jez]

It's been possible for quite some time to do a PDC online at:

Permaculture Visions (http://www.permaculturevisions.com/)

who run a course specifically designed for remote students with a curriculum endorsed by Tagari (http://www.tagari.com/) and the Permaculture Institute.

It's probably worth mentioning that the accreditation of both teachers and curriculums has changed in recent times due to the Institute getting some complaints about how courses had differing standards and levels of teaching - some students felt they had been let down and their money was not well spent. The Institute is trying to address this situation by personally vetting the curriculums of all teachers before they grant accreditation.

Please note, I'm not trying to cast aspersions on the course(s) anyone who is not accredited runs (I'm sure many are great courses run by great people), but you can be sure you're getting what is intended by the PDC if you use an accredited teacher, which may be helpful for those considering doing a PDC in the future.

The accredited teachers (and by default accredited curriculums) are available at:

Permaculture Institute Accredited Teachers (http://www.tagari.com/index.php?page_id=19)

As far as I'm aware, all course notes from the Permaculture Visions PDC are given to the student either in PDF format or as a print copy, so that means after your course you always have all the information you've learned on hand. It's probably also worth mentioning that all PDCs I've heard of are (at least to some degree) based around Bill Mollison's book:

Permaculture: A Designers Manual (http://www.tagari.com/item.php?itemid=1)

which I add for those who can't afford to do a course or don't wish to at this time, but do want to learn more about Permaculture.

The Permaculture Visions Course gives remote students or those unable to find an accredited course in their area the opportunity of doing their PDC online in their own time (no deadlines etc.), with full opportunity to ask questions using their own photos, discuss ideas/concepts etc., while the teacher (April Sampson-Kelly) is a long time Permaculture exponent who is both knowledgeable in a wide range of relevant subjects and a great person from all the dealings I've had with her.

[ho-hum]

Jez,

Good words.

Also, and thankyou, I can finally do a PDC sometime by correspondence. I havent done one before due mainly to family & business committments. It always seemed rather selfish of me to disappear for 2 weeks on holiday to do a PDC. I had always dreamed of taking the whole family. Do they let kids on PDC's?

I have to add that one of my fears was that I would be a long way from home and committed to doing a PDC and someone would say something like 'Pisces is a water sign and that means Pisceans are good at growing mungbeans' or someone would start on about witchcraft or teepees. This sort of thing, in the middle of a PDC, would have driven me nuts.

floot

[Alex M]

I have to agree with Floot. When I did my trade training, there was no talk about Taureans making good Blacksmiths, or Capricornians being better toolmakers. That sort of stuff makes interesting conversation in the breaks, but has no place in a PDC. I suppose that's why I chose the PDC I took, to get the message "from the horse's mouth" without unecessary additions. But it suited me to take the time off, and although I would have liked more of a hands-on practical element, I felt it was worthwhile.

An online correspondence course would be just the ticket for a lot of people, and I suppose a small group could study it together, while developing a joint project of their own, which would be a lot of fun, as well.

BTW - Love the Permapedia Murray, great stuff! :D

[Tezza]

Has anyone here Done the correspondence courses with April...

Ive sat around trying to decide about the course it looks great flicking thru the web pages..

April posts here sometime could she or someone give us a few pointers

Tezza

[Forest Fairy]

Hi Boab,

I am sorry that you are having such a crap experience. I was actually thinking of doing the course at Northey St too. Instead I did mine at Crystal Waters and it was absolutely fantastic. Originally I was trying to do one with Morag and Evan. I had seen Morag speaking at our local hall and she is a truly inspirational human being. When I called Crystal Waters they told me she was having a baby and would not be running courses this year. That was how I got to do my course with Max Lindegger the Legend that he is.

I have answered your questionaire and would really encourage you if you can afford it to try and do a course with either Morag or Max, or Robyn Clayfield who is just gorgeous too.

1. How long did your course go for?
Course was for 2 weeks.

2. Where was it held?
Crystal Waters Eco-Village.

3. Do qualified permaculture teachers have to run it?
Am assuming so. They knew loadsastuff.

4. Did you break for public holidays?
Wasn't any hols. Even had to work on Sat. Was a good day though, went to Eumundi and Kondalilla Falls. Got Sunday off though and came back to Bris for the day to go to the Cricket. Not very permie, but good fun.


5. How was your course structured? (Did it have any structure?)
It was extremely structured which was the best part about it. There was certainly plenty of time for Q's etc. However, the group were fantastic and very aware of keeping their more specific questions for dinner times and night time. We spent alot of time in the evenings after class sitting around fixing all of the problems in the world.


6. Did you get homework, feedback etc after the lesson or were you left to your own devices?
I think that it is one of those things that you get out as much as you put in. Our group were all very enthusiastic to learn and share. There was alot of work to be done more so in the 2nd week. I spent a couple of nights till midnight working on our project and up again at Sparrows to get it done. We presented our final group designs on the last day and received overall feedback for the whole project. However, Max and Lloyd were on hand if we needed direction.


7. Did you feel you learned a lot?

I learnt sooo much. I loved my garden before I went there but had little knowledge about living sustainably. Because I already have a house on my property, the building side of things went a little over my head ( not too difficult to do), but I just could not get enough of everything else. Especially the soil component. It is my passion. Afterall, "Soil is life"....

8. How much did your course cost?
All up the course was I think about $1500.

9. Did you feel it was value for money?
Incredible value for money. That included all of your food and accom and the course. Accom was bunkhouse style which was fine. Clean, tidy. Hot showers and great food.

10. Would you do it again?
Absolutely without a doubt. I would like to try a course with Morag and Evan.
I have done a number of courses with Jade Woodhouse at Eudlo who to me is one of the most sharing, caring and knowing people on the planet. If you ever get a chance to do a course with her, I can guarantee you will not be disappointed.
Unfortunately for us she now resides in Dorrigo NSW, but every now and then she comes to the Sunshine Coast. Check her website for details.
http://www.simplynaturalorganic.com.

Hope things get better for you. Thank god for places like these though. The people that so willingly impart their knowledge on these forums and probably the best teachers we can have.

[Sonya]

Hi Jules,

Glad to hear Jade Woodhouse's name pop up. I actually bought her (and Paul's) place at Eudlo and I am also a student of hers.

She is still coming up here and teaching - her next course is planned for after the Qld Home and Garden Expo in early July - which by the way will have a HUGE organic and permaculture section if you can get there - lots of speakers, lots of demos.

And that was Jade's strength, I did an intro to Permaculture with her, but the rest of her courses were all about practical ways to get started in p/c - how to make compost, how to worm farm, how to start a vegie patch, green manure crops, chook care, food forests etc etc - all really good stuff to inspire people to go home and get started.

We welcome her back to our place when she can make it to continue to offer this important service to the community. But student demand far outways her time availability - since moving to Dorrigo to 125 acres, she has bought some cows for milking and their manure, so she can't get back up here as often as we need her.

She is trying to set up courses from the Dorrigo property - so I urge you, if you can get there - to do one.

Jade is the best educator I have ever encountered - and I've done a lot of courses at various levels (community based through to post grad uni degrees).

With Jade's support I plan to continue to offer courses from our property in the future - I'm just starting to teach a few small courses to small groups, but I feel I need to do a PDC and Robin Clayfield's permaculture education course before I can really start teaching properly and to offer people the best value for money...

A PDC is great and gives you the certificate and also can go toward a Diploma, but I think also doing practical short courses in different areas with different teachers adds to your learning experience and gives you a more rounded knowledge base.

If anyone is interested in doing Jade's courses (either late July or early Aug) let me know. It isn't set in concrete yet, but will probably be two days of garden design, setting up a garden, planting, seeds, seedlings etc etc, then on the third day, composting to make humus, worm farming and green manure crops.

Also, the Chevallum Permaculture Group is offering 'Practical Permaculture Home Gardening Workshops" in August, run by Janet Millington, which will be accredited toward your overall p/c quals.

Cheers,

Sonya.

[Forest Fairy]

Hi Sonya,

I so wanted to buy that place, but already had my little paradise. Can't be greedy now. I knew it would go to someone who would love it as much as Jade and Paul. Like you, I cannot speak highly enough of Jade.
I found every course I attended of hers was just so packed full of fantastic info, and there was lots and lots of hands on as well. I am such a visual person and to me I absorb so much more.
I wish you all the very best with your plans to continue offering Simply Natural as a living classroom.
:D :D :D :D :D
No doubt I will catch you in the airwaves very soon and certainly at the Gardening Expo.

J

[Sonya]

Hey Jules,

I'll be at the Garden Expo - I'm helping Jade over the three days so come up and introduce yourself it should be a great event.

Cheers,

Sonya.

[Chillichook]

Hi Boab,

I am one of those course members at Northey Street, who has "dropped out" for all the reasons you mentioned. I am a little dishartened and dissapointed, considering my eagerness to learn and complete this course.

The moment I decided to leave was set for me when one of the course teachers responded to me, when I asked him during the 'Building garden structures' course if we were going to learn actually how to build a garden structure (we had spent the first hour talking about what we wanted to learn, the second hour walking around in dissorganised groups looking at dreadful existing structures, and the last hour still not learning anything...) his response to me was if you want to learn how to build a garden structure, go and do a course at Bunnings!

That is the tip of the ice berg.

Yes I was also horrified at the ferral garden and illegal grey water system, on the tour that 'the host' so proudly showed us. I too am not over permaculture because of my less than pleasant experience at Northey Street, however I am looking at books and places like this site for inspiration.

I also dissagree with using my skills and valuable time to design a permaculture garden that someone else is being paid for. Correct me if am wrong, but that is a breach of intellectual property and copyright, is it not.

PS I would be interested to know if you got gastro from lunch served on the Cassava day, I know I am not the only one...

Just out of interest, someone I know did this course last year and complained to Dick about the lack of structure, notes, organisation etc etc and thier comments were ignored, they were then made to feel uncomfortable with all future dealings.

It is a shame It went this way, It had so much potential! :(

[Boab]

they were then made to feel uncomfortable with all future dealings.

The first reason among many why I am not alerting the course providers in writing until I finish the course. I hope you keep going forward, Chillichook.

Richard in your rush to make your own conclusions, I would like to point out that of the three people you mentioned, only one of them runs the course and that, aside from that, this thread is not about bashing people but airing thoughts on what I consider to be a below par course. You might swallow the "been around for years must have years of experience" adage but I don't.

If you're good with your bet, you've just lost your toenail. Careful you're not too quick to lose the other one.

[christopher]

There have been a few objections to doing a design for someone else, usually the host of the course, but the design is an intrinsic part of the course.

A PDC does many things, but one of them is it arms you with a "tool belt" of tools to look at, assess, design and implement that design. The other important part of EVERY course is that students actually design something, using a piece of land close to the class room.

For my PDC, the one I took, I designed changes to my own farm, most of which I never implemented, in part because my understanding pf permacultural principles grew after the course, and before i could implement my original simplistic design. The "toolbelt" I had was full of new tools, and I used the tools the way a novice uses tools, putting various components here and there, some of which were not really appropriate.

The other students at the course broke into groups, and designed changes to different pieces of the hosts land, and some to a neighbors place, but the design was one of the most important parts of the course, and, by working in groups, various design elements were incorporated in the design that one person, working alone, would have cerainly missed.

At the course we hosted in February, the instructors had all the participants break up into five groups, and the instructors, Penny Livingston and Toby Hemenway, assigned them pieces of our land that were un or underdeveloped, and they spent what they described to me as the most enjoyable parts of their course working in their groups, looking at the land, building mental aquaponis systems here, apiaries there, a treehouse for birdwatching, a new kitchen, a shower for our house, none of which exist, and most of which will never exist, at least in those exact forms.

The funnest part for all of them, I think, was presenting the designs, which was a lot of fun for us on the board at MMRF. We got some designs that were interesting to us, incorporating elements and relationships between components that we would not have done, was thought provoking for us, and good for them.

I think they all knew that we would most likely not use their designs in its entirety, but we will be (and have been) incorporating elements of the designs that we like.

We had a fantastic bunch of people involved in the course, both the instructors and the students were outstanding in every way, wonderfully accepting when the first few days were wet and miserable (everyone was laughing at the mud). I think they would all want us to use their design work, if possible.

My point is that the design is an integral part of every Permaculture Design Course, hence the word "design" :lol: :lol: Consider your design work their as a learning experience, and don't worry if it is used or not. It most likely will not be used.

And, I am sorry the course hasn't met your expectations. There was a thread in here that adressed some issues at that place (which got some very wounded and personally hurt entries from people over there, too). The URL for that thread, which is locked, is http://forums.permaculture.org.au/viewtopic.php?t=1849&highlight=northy+street

Take what you can from the course, and thank you for warning people of your experience. You may have saved someone from wasting their time and money! Things like this also serve the hosts to let them know they need to improve the quality of the experience they provide.

[Boab]

:shock: I had no idea that other link existed and I am sad that it does. However, I can see why it does. :(


You may have saved someone from wasting their time and money!

The main reason why I posted in the first place.
The next thing is figuring out what to do about it because criticism is not well received there. But I have said all I have to say on the matter now and will wander off to think about it.

Thank you all again for your input.

[Chillichook]

This is a quote from Mozzie, from that link you sent us to.


"I love the fact that you both found it disordered. It's obvious you have no concept of permaculture design.
I love that you have complained about the people and have misunderstood the premise for the farm in the first place. It's obvious you relied on first impressions and did not bother to investigate your queries further.

I love the fact that you have deemed to engage in demeaning slurs suggesting that the farm is for "drop ins with nowhere else to go". This tells me you are also ignorant of permaculture principles.

With these ideas, it means that the two of you will stay well away from Northey Street Farm.

And I love that I am utterly delighted with that."

That is exactly the kind of attitude that seems to permeate the farm, I think what Mozzie forgets is what community is all about.

Dictionery meaning: Community n. Common possession or enjoyment: agreement: communion: people having common rights, the public in general...

Not an exclusive club where your opinion is the only correct opinion and if God forbid we the general public have a different one, we are not welcome at "YOUR FARM" :?:

She is the general public, the exact kind of person the permaculture world are trying to reach and change their ideas about a better, more sustainable future. Your comments and attitude are WHY people like her, cannot get closer to see the value. Maybe you should consider having that cuppa, chilling and contemplate what permaculture really means.

I was eager and excited to be a part on Northey street, I have been visiting for years and waiting for a time in my life to be able to dive in help and be a part of my community, that time has come and after close inspection, I am running in the opposite direction. NSF has a lot to offer and there are a lot of beautiful souls in an around. But seriously, it needs a shakeup, clean out and attitude adjustment, or all the members are going to dissapear, volunteers will vanish and the council, tax department and health department will shut it down.

[Tezza]

8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Chill out you MOB..Your sounding like common human beings more and more everyday..

Funny how its a crime to get on the defensive.......

Funny how some just gotta be perfect no matter what the cost.............

Why are we wasting our times on weather people will follow our Permaculture paths.....1/2 of the posters wil knock you no matter how you do ya garden.and the other half,will find something else to whinge about,

Its its Tidy ittl have the wrong plants or teachers ...or right teachers and messy gardens......So what!!!!!!!!!!!!

If people decide against permaculture, becuase of someone elses idea of hygene,landscape ideas,or because as a volonteer they are a bit busy to chat. Isnt that being a bit hard on the people who are doing what they think/know is the best,, AS a permie you could have a bit more tolerence,after all you/we all know it aint easy......

As for a non Permie who just starts crapping on well i call that pig ignorence......

Im not here to win a tidy garden award.......
Im here to help save my life, feed myself, care for myself and family,not forgetting about doing it for mankind also....If i get excess food or other i share it...

Actually I dont care if people dont like my er "better homes and gardens GARDEN"...just like i dont care if people like my hairstyle,my music choics,
my religious beleifs,my sexual attitudes etc etc etc..........

Im not here for the world to like or hate im here for my own...

Funny how "defensive was made a "nasty" attitude a bit earlier.....
Well if i came to anyones house and made anything but positive comments Im sure Youd all get on the defensive and boot my ass of of here......We all get defensive..................

So what if people who want gardens like the tv stars.

So what if people are small minded about a bit of wee smells from a compost or compost toilet,who cares if 1 in 6 plants look old and near death.

Some of us actually save seed There are a hundred reasons for that unsightly garden,,Who are we to judge....................

I of course would love it if everyone was a permie,just like the good old days..trouble is it aint been like that for a couple thousand years now...
Luckily weve had a few thousand years to muck around......
Thing is we dont have a thousand years to get it right again......
we may not even get outta the first century of the the 2000s....

Personally I Dont and Cant care"its impossible to"whether people become permies after seeing mine or anyone elses places.....

Thers too many people anyways...I can imagine gangs roaming the streets
yelling to untidy gardeners bout the lack of colour coordination with their sunflowers clashing with there tagasasties,or their frog pond makes too much noise in early mating seasons...or the straw thast they layed last month is now brown instead of shiny gold coloured....

To all those who pick and whinge about anything,wel its just a sign that maybe its time you woke up to realities.

If we keep arguing well we got no hope have we.(wheres my razer blades)

I think some people in here are in desperate need of reading Bills books or rerunning his videos....Bill explains it all in his books/vids..

Please show me the page where Billsays "all gardens must be in strait lines or be nominated for the cover of a glossy magazine"

Well done to Northey st,the East Perth place,and al thoseother community gardens..No wonder they get accusations.......They mighta had some of our boardies attacking them..or others...If i allegedly got this many complaints id be on the defensive also..........

Permaculture Just Doing IT

Tezza

[Chillichook]

Hi Terence,


So what if people are small minded about a bit of wee smells from a compost or compost toilet,who cares if 1 in 6 plants look old and near death.

I hear your reply, and understand exactly where you are coming from.

However, the council does care about a putrid smelling toilet, the health department does care when people who eat on the premises get salmonella, the health department and rspca does care when animals are sick or injured.

And so do I.

I want NSF to be around for a very long time, for ALL the community to be a part of and enjoy. At this rate it won't be. :(

[Chillichook]

Can anyone out there tell me if it is normal or common practice to charge for an educational course on a sliding scale?

Northey streets charges are as follows:
$ 650.00 income less than $ 20 000
$ 800.00 income less than $ 45 000
$ 950.00 income more than $ 45 000

Actually, I stand corrected because half way through the course they have put the prices up to:

$ 700.00 income less than $ 25 000
$ 875.00 income $ 25 000 - $ 50 000
$ 1050.00 income of more than $ 50 000

So I guess, my next question to anyone out there is..

Do you feel that sliding scale fees, devalues a product/ course?
(the value of the product ie: the course, is a little as what the lowest amount requested for it is)

Its a bit like saying if you are on the dole, you only have to pay 50c for the same McDonald burger that someone who works their ring off, to improve themselves and income has to pay $2.50, seems somewhat rude to ask a hurting taxpayer (and make no mistake, paying tax hurts!) to pay for the person on the dole and then pay more or be penalised because they are not on the dole...

And I would love to be corrected if I am mis informed, but I believe its illegal... :shock:

[Richard on Maui]

I hope it isn't illegal because I think it makes a lot of sense. Changing prices in the middle of a course is pretty weird though. I would just pay what I thought I was up for at the beginning and tell them to get more organised.
As for the sliding scale, lots of Permaculture courses are run on this basis to my knowlege. PRI used to give free tuition to students from developing countries for example, and allowed a certain amount of work trade to reduce the cash price for a certain number of "dole bludgers" etc.

[Richard on Maui]

Oh sorry, I just reread the whole thread properly and see that you didn't continue with the course so please ignore my comments about how much you should pay them.
Boab, I wouldn't mind getting rid of my other toenail altogether actually as it is perpetually ingrown. :(
Anyway, I was actually trying to support you to communicate your feelings of dissatisfaction with the NSCF course to the appropriate people. I didn't intend to refute that your course was badly run. How would I know? I was trying to ask who was responsible! And I was just passing on my own experience that I found Dick, Richard, John and Tash all to have a lot to teach me (and vice versa, I might add) when I worked with them. Of course, I wasn't giving them any money, so I was less likely to be dissapointed wasn't I?
I think I may have written about this elsewhere, that I think it is a mistake for us to charge for courses at all. For one thing, it sets you up for failure if you don't reflect similar standards as professional educators, and for another, in a majority of cases, people have to go off and do awful, unsustainable things ("work their rings off") to get the money to pay you. Crazy!

Now, if NSCF offered PDC's in exchange for labor in maintaining and developing the gardens, who could complain?

By the way,

[Boab]

Richard, this thread has given me so much food for thought as well as courage. I thought I was alone in my thoughts and it appears that this is not so.

Chillichook, I appreciate your input regarding the PDC. It was a great loss to have you leave (you, too, Permanut) and I hope that you keep on with permaculture and the farm. Because the farm needs new energy. Vibrant, loving souls who aren't territorial about their patches. Yes, I noticed that mid way through the prices went up but presumed that these would apply to the following courses. And yes, for what you (don't) get, these prices are exhorbitant.

However, I'm not sure whether the sliding scale would be illegal or not. I would certainly agree with Richard with regards to labour exchange as opposed to financial discrimination. TAFE offers permaculture training (although government accredited) and makes no such discernment. The concessions granted for some courses they provide are subsidised by the government and are subject to quotas. TAFE also adhere to a strict and wide scale teaching requirements (teachers must be qualified via accredited teaching courses) - something very lacking in the PDC.

Richard, I hear you regarding the money issue but to offer the courses for free would further exacerbate an already appalling situation I believe. What I really feel should be done is to ensure that trainers are properly trained. That is, undertake courses substantially longer than those currently offered which are run via uniform and uniformly assessed rules (meted out by the Permaculture Institute?) so that a global standard is applicable. Currently, there is no standard in permaculture training because at the moment it's all over the shop. This is very evident not only in the information regarding such teaching that I have perused but even moreso in the other, far more comprehensive PDC courses people have attended (which I wish I'd known about!)

If permaculture is to gain any vestige of accountability in society, how it is delivered needs to be addressed and something done about it. My greatest concern here is that many people are being turned off by these rocketing prices and lacklustre training. Like me, they can't afford to move around or avail themselves of other, far better courses than the one I am currently attending and, like me, think that this is what permaculture offers.

Through my own investigation, part of which have taken place right here, I know this not to be true and many of you have brought tears of hope to my eyes with what is truly out there. I am not a brave person by any means and the thought of writing a complaint makes me nervous but some things just can't be run away from. As one lovely fellow student said to me recently - if you run away from something you give that something all your power. You remain silent, unnoticed and untried and the world loses a gift. The gift of You.

I think I'm going to start writing that letter of complaint.

I thank you all very sincerely for your responses.

[Sonya]

Hi Boab,

Re: changes needed to PDC delivery.

This is happening.

I'm currently doing a practical permaculture course with Janet Millington on the Sunshine Coast and plan to do her PDC later this year at her Permaculture crayfish farm at Eumundi (which by the way is $440 - bring your own food and accommodation is extra).

Janet who is a teacher by trade, along with others, are very active in developing permaculture teaching and most importantly, course delivery to students, to a higher quality accredited level. This is all being planned without threat to the current PDC as it stands for people who still wish to complete one.

More info about these changes is available on the Djanbung Garden website, and the Permaculture International Ltd website.

I can put the study I'm doing with Janet, plus assessment of prior learning all toward a Diploma of Permaculture if I want later.

Cheers,

Sonya.

[Chillichook]

I think I'm going to start writing that letter of complaint.

Hi Boab,


I would love Northey Street, to reach its potential and I don't have the answers on how that would be achieved.

[Tezza]

Dont take itpersonally was meant as on the whole"Humans" not any particlar person....I agree lotsa people equals lots of different ideas....Unfortunatly some are right ..some are wrong........

I dont know the place at all i was only trying to help and not start off a witch hunt ...on here we never know really who we talking too.....Sometimes i wonder who is right whoo is wrong.....But one thing i do know is......That giving any bad publicity to Permaculture via our idle chit chat can end up having a negative effect betweeen those who know Northey,as a ok place into 2 sides with opposing veiws that may lead to even worse attitudes then before with those who dont know northey......

Tezza

[ho-hum]

Forums/threads can often develop into chinese whispers, particularly as we can all miss a post or even 'bump' someone along the way. Some folks use the maxim of 'if I post last i win' which is even crazier.

Boab came to our forum called 'PERMACULTURE RESEARCH INSTITUTE' with legitimate concerns and questions about the standards set by a PDC.

All good healthy stuff!!

To have the forum turn it into a 'Northey St' thread misses the point. People will have opinons based on their environmental factors, which will differ according to the individual and their experience.

Boab asked for advice from a forum with a pretty big name about expectations of a PDC and to some extent that has been addressed.

For example, if a PDC'er were to visit my place they may comment that the front half of my house yard has pandanus, frangipani and redgum in it and then follow up with a 'why'? See I like pandanus and the redgum and frangipani my wife likes and they are too hard to kill. Do they 'fit' a Permaculture Utopia, nope but they are staying anyway.

This is not a 'proper' permacultured front yard but it is mine so I do not have to conform.

The problems with any display property is that they have to cope with visitors, experts, volunteers, inspectors etc that all have a set of expectations. I feel my property was a nice example of what you can achieve but did I actually produce:
fibres
run-off
readily combustible fuel
wood
electricity
income

To each of these my answer would be .....''ummm well sorta''.

If you are a display property each and every element of permaculture must be addressed. Given that most of these enterprises are run on a shoe-string by well-meaning people then the results they produce for a community are staggering. Sadly, some of us may rightfully notice their shortcomings. It is all about perspective.

Interestingly, this is a 'standard' that in my reading Mollison & Holmgren didnt ever demand. Permaculture was all about giving people hope and the knowledge to do what you can with what you have.

Otherwise Permaculture, for 'purists' would be all about teaching us all to be self-reliant subsistence farmers. This not a bad thing or even unhealthy, Pemaculture was all about doing what you can within the framework of what you have.

Let's leave the high & mighty to the religious groups and let us 'do what we can with what we have'.

This is my small effort at re-orientating this thread back to the original question and why it was asked, without offending or confronting anyone.

floot

[Boab]

To have the forum turn it into a 'Northey St' thread misses the point.

Yes, it does.
I am not comfortable with people being named and then portrayed in an unfavourable light. While it is understandable that people are disappointed, as Tezza has pointed out, allowing that disappointment to turn bad creates a 'witch hunt' attitude which achieves nothing except more angst. I admire Dick immensely and of all the people at the farm, the last people I would cite as being vindictive (of which there are a few who do well at this), Dick and Richard would not even make consideration.


Interestingly, this is a 'standard' that in my reading Mollison & Holmgren didnt ever demand. Permaculture was all about giving people hope and the knowledge to do what you can with what you have.

Floot, I agree, but bear in mind that Mollison & Holmgren didn't demand money either. When money is involved, particularly large amounts of money that are now required to attend PDCs, the dynamic changes as do obligations thereby creating new responsibilities that must catered for and to.

[carollillith]

I'm doing my PDC through Permaculture Visions, starting early this year ... I've been reading about Permaculture for decades and I'm sure it's influenced many of my decisions over the years ... but this is the first time I've been tempted to formally study ...

In part I chose to do it this way because of geographic isolation (but I'm not usually this isolated) mainly it's because of the flexibility the online course offers ... sometimes I spend solid periods of time in a 'Permaculture frame of mind' and wander around the farm with both vision and a sense of purpose ... other times I'm too busy to do more than concentrate on the chores that need to be done ...

and from the exposure I've had to the course, it seems both informative and thought provoking, lots of questions and assignments along the way, a few are required or recommended, many are optional but the process of doing them has been invaluable ... I've learned lots too!!!

I miss having the face-to-face comments of other participants but the teaching material includes so many contributions from other students (there have been almost 600 students) that I feel part of a tradition, learning and passing on information at the same time ... and joining this forum has provided some of the missing contact.

Fortunately I am comfortable with self directed study and learning from written material ... there is lots of it. I sometimes wonder how someone who didn't like reading would cope with the sheer volume of words!

The course can be delivered entirely online, April communicates well in cyberspace and both she and her home base "feel" very real to me from email contacts and the course materials ... it's an option well worth considering!

[christopher]

We hosted a course here last year, with Penny Livingston and Toby Hemenway, two very qualified teachers who brought a wealthy of information and enthusiasm to the course. Bringing them cost money, and the price of the course covered them, as well as all of the food (most of which was grown for this course), limitless carafes of coffee (locally produced!) and transportation and a fee to the owners of noteworthy farms.

Earlier, the question was wether or not people should charge for PDCs, and I think they should. I have lived in the developing world all of my adult life, over 20 years. I have worked in one capacity or another in development for much of that 20 years. I have worked with NGOs, for NGOs, with CBOs, with cooperatives, as an employee, under contract, and what I have learned is that free things corrupt.

This is probably goint to rub some people the wrong way, and there is a difference between gifts and charity and "free things" but here the people, mostly Kekchi and Mopan Maya up country where we are, but the same holds true to some extent with the Mestizos, the Creoles and the Garifuna, is that free things provide a disincentive to work, and continued free things creates a culture of dependency that is destructive to the people.

When i worked at the cacao coop, we gave trees away one year, and the nursery was rushed, all the trees were taken.... and they sat in the yards until dry season came.... very few of them got planted because the people didn't value them. The next year we sold the trees, at a subsidized price where the burden of payment was shared with the coop, and the nurseries took a lot longer to get emptied. Because the farmers had something invested in the trees, all of those trees were planted and tended, which was more valuable for the coop than all of the free trees.

Habitat for Humanit builds houses for poor people, which is a very worth while endeavour, but sometimes good intentions do dam,age, too. A very good friend of mine who has worked a lot in Africa for the Red Cross, the UN, CARE, etc told me an interesting story:
Some people came to a village he was working in, and they found the most destitute man in the village. They took pictures of his miserable little hovel, his measly possessions, and they proclaimed they would help him, and, in fact, they did. They built this man a house, a really nice house. In fact they built this man the nicest house in the village.
Why was this man so destitute? What made his situation that much worse than all the other people in the villages? Because he was a drunkard, a layabout, a gambler, a philandering whore monger.
Lesson in this village: If you are a drunkard, a layabout, a gambler, a philandering whore monger, white people will come and give you the nicest house in the village. :lol: That is what the village took away from this experience. Sad but true!

The local pharmacy gets closed down when the free drugs arrive, and when the aid organizations pack their tents and go home, there is no local source for drugs any more.

Now, um, my point is that moving instructurs to places taked money. And feeding students takes money, or the time to grow the food (as we did), which displaces time that could be spent pursuing money.


. When money is involved, particularly large amounts of money that are now required to attend PDCs, the dynamic changes as do obligations thereby creating new responsibilities that must catered for and to.

This was what we did. We provided a very good experience. The teachers were wonderful, the food was great, varied and fresh. The coffee was neverending! The graduates of our course got a good course, and their needs were met at each step of the way. The feedback we got was entirely positive, with the exceptions that the Belizeans wanted more meat, which we will meet next time.

Half of the people were Belizean, and of the 9 Belizeans, 7 of them had their tuition paid in full by Protected Areas Conservation Trust. Of the seven organizations that took the course, we sponsorted two additional students, one additional student from an NGO we think very highly of, and one additional student from Ministry of Agriculture. For us as an NGO, we felt that doubling the participation of these two organizations would make information retention and dissemination more likely.

If someone in Belize, a private citizen not attached to an NGO/CBO/Ministry of Ag had asked for a discount, we would have made that available, because making money here is really hard, but noone asked, and we were well subscribed.

We also offered scholarships to one participant each from two other organizations, but their schedules made committing the people who would benefit from this training to two weeks impossible.

We had one woman ask for a discount in exchange for labour, and we arranged for her to stay a week longer and help wash all the sheets, clean up the buildings, which was a win/win situation for all, she got a slight discount, and we got a lot of help (and some excellent company!)

And, Floot, frangipanis and redgum, etc are part of a permacuture system if you get enjoyment from them. Additionally, they also provide pollen for pollinators, and attract pollinators. They mine nutrients from the soil. They aerate the soil, and buffer the effects of suin wind and rain.

Ornamentals are valuable in permaculture systems, but the Calvanist work ethic of food, food, food sometimes devalues them! Don't sell your ornamentals short! They are very important parts of your permaculture system. If anyone asks why, point out the valubale ecological services they provide, both to you, your land and the larger world around them.

[spritegal]

Hi all

I'm also doing a 1 year PDC course at the moment. Like any course, some of the attendees are "educated", and some don't have a single clue and are learning from scratch. The course is designed to cater for the whole spectrum of knowledge.

I didnt mind the $500.00 annual fee - I think that was fairly priced for a weekly 2.5 hour course plus weekend excursions to permaculture farms every 4-6 weeks or so.

The best thing about the course is making contacts amongst like minded people - I don't think you can put a price on that

cheers

sprite

[Tezza]

Heres my 2 bobs worth


I too feel that "money" has just about ruined society as a whole and sooner its gone the better.....

But i agree with Chris about the problems faced with giving things away..

But i suppose that as we a;l still live in this money oriented world ..we do need it sometimes....try offering labour to the local electricity in exchange for power...

I dont allways charge for my produce.....Depends how generous im feeling and to who the customer is 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Tezza

[ecodharmamark]

G'day Everyone :)

"Feed a person a fish, and you feed them for a day. Teach a person to fish, and you feed them for life". (My apologies to the original owner of this expression - for I know not who you are! But surely how I wish I did for I use your wonderful quote every day)

IMO all forms of education should be free from the constraints of 'money'. This is not to say that the participants in educational programs should not be prepared to offer something towards the 'cost' of the course, for I think everyone can gain something from the notion of mutual exchange. After all, it does all come back to 'cycles of energy' - sooner or later someone or something is going to have to 'pay'.

Perhaps we have got a little off topic here, so I shall leave off further expression of my thoughts for now.

Good luck in the future with your studies, Boab.

Cheerio to All,

Mark.

[Ichsani]

Hi all,

Very interesting to read about everyones different experiences with their permaculture accreditation.

I'm one who feels, lets say, a little uncomfortable around the idea. The first time I read the manual was in my early teens, cover to cover. Other aspects my dear dad taught me when he still could (hippy/permaculture child!), other things I've picked up from all sorts of places. What I've taken that has lasted with me is that there are many ways of doing and seeing things, and I consider myself fortunate for being exposed to such ideas at a young age.

But at what point does one 'qualify' in permaculture so to speak? I've never confined myself to the one discipline and find most food production methods and the environment intensly interesting. But this question of qualification has vexed me alot!

If I've read/practiced/visited enough sites do I 'qualify'? Does my other education count? (land and water scientist in training....almost bloody done!)....I actually want to do a course when funds permit, as well as one of Elaine Inghams....working from the inside I hope.

Can one 'qualify' by experience? And can I clarify........ does one need the bit of paper to claim knowledge of permaculture methods?

Cheers people
Ichsani

PS Murray, the permapedia is a great idea! Am I allowed to write anything in there considering I don't have a bit of paper for it? (I can however, reference my work from here to kingdom come if need be :) )

[RobWindt]

G'day Ischani, the beauty of permaculture is that it is cross disciplinary rather than reductionist, complementary and holistic rather than divisive (the current list fracas notwithstanding)
Much good work can and is being done within those three ethics and, as David Holmgren has stated, call it whatever you like as long as you do it, we all bring a unique perspective and a unique contribution according to our skills, abilities and personalities.

Bill Mollison was adamant that we only need a PDC to understand the basics across different regions and climatic zones, and then to go out and practice. The original PDC is enough for many and all that we need to use the term permaculture professionally. http://www.tagari.com/index.php?page_id=18

Accredited Permaculture Training (APT) was a response to the perceived threat of TAFEs running permaculture classes without referencing the ethics and principles, cherry picking the sellable bits and no more.
Thanks to a lot of hard work by those involved in the APT package people now have the option of studying various streams within a framework that is nationally recognised, if they so choose.
I'm currently gathering RPLs (recognised prior learnings) towards a Cert'IV in permaculture (I need more hands on experience for the diploma) and taking the Cert'IV in training and assessment that is required to teach in TAFE, so the long winded answer is yes, your other education does count, if you can document it and if you want to go down the teaching path


The following is part of a 2004 post to the PC Oceania list from Robyn Francis on APT

....Cert IV has 1 urban design unit and 1 rural design unit.
Built environment comes under the appropriate technology unit which applies to both urban & rural.
There are 2 units dealing with bioregions and community development
(which applies to both urban and rural and the relationship between urban
and rural). Beyond the built environment, sustainable change means working with people, i.e. Community development, and in Cert IV there are 4 units relating specifically to community development and facilitation.

The APT Diploma of Pc is actually more biased towards urban and community design than rural applications. See below:

GROUP A Elective units (6 units from this list must be completed)

PIL501A Carry out permaculture field research
This can include research for urban systems

PIL502A Design an integrated permaculture system
These can be urban or rural systems

PIL503A Develop a strategic plan for a permaculture project
Essential for any system and particularly designed for human settlements and bioregional planning (urban & rural)

PIL504A Manage a permaculture project
Can be urban or rural

PIL505A Plan the implementation of a permaculture project
Can be urban or rural

PIL506A Design and plan a sustainable settlement
This includes physical design and social planning for both urban and rural
settlements

PIL507A Research and interpret requirements for a permaculture project
This is largely focussed on legislative, planning and council requirements,
options for legal structures etc - this unit designed with settlements in
mind plus applies to other kinds of projects

PIL508A Plan management strategies for overseas development projects
Deals with rural and urban projects

PIL509A Plan and design structures for permaculture systems
This is fully about built environment, not only buildings but other
infrastructures and designed primarily with settlements in mind plus other
applications

GROUP B Elective units (4 units from this list must be completed)

PIL510A Prepare a community and bioregional development strategy
This can be either rural or urban

PIL511A Facilitate participatory planning and learning activities
The participatory planning aspect is focussed on facilitating community
action and design for urban and village renewal, community planning etc - is very much arising from work of Peter Cuming, Wendy Sarkissian and myself with community facilitation and consultation, plus Robyn Clayfields creative learning facilitation processes.

PIL512A Plan community governance and decision-making processes
This is designed for ecovillages, communities, cohousing, housing co-ops,
which can be urban or rural-based.

The following are generic units taught within a pc context. The diploma
requirements are that 8 of 10 units are pc specific so only maximum of 2 of these can be included and would depend on the kind of pc activities/projects a diploma student is intending to work in. They are all applicable to both urban and rural situations and contexts.

BSBADM504A Plan or review administration systems
BSBMGT506A Recruit, select and induct staff
RTC5203A Plan erosion and sediment control measures
RTC5801A Provide specialist advice to clients
RTC5912A Market products and services
RTE5523A Develop climate risk management strategies


The bioregional/community development units in both Cert IV and Diploma include bigger picture as well as neighbourhood context and include services, social catchments as well as natural environment factors. These units would address issues like public transport, energy & resource flows, waste & recycling, community education, development and settlement patterns etc etc. etc.....

Cheers
Rob

[RobWindt]

Found a better description of APT in the archives, from Robyn Francis

...18 months ago Permaculture International successfully had 4 levels of Certificates in Permaculture, plus Diploma of Permaculture, registered with national accreditation authorities.
This is a first for permaculture globally. Years of soul-searching, discussion and research went into this, and being able to offer a diversity of training at these standards with quality assurance is important not only for credibility but helps us meet many of the needs you and others have mentioned in various postings, including making courses more economically accessible.

In short, the 4 levels of certification are:

Certificate I in Permaculture
Basics for beginners, how to care for plants & animals, live a conserver lifestyle, get to know your bioregion, get a garden started - it's perfect for high school students, problem learners, disadvantaged groups, youth programs etc (Last year a college in Melbourne had over 160 Year-9 students graduate with a Cert I in Permaculture which they did as an elective subject)

Certificate II in Permaculture
Skilled workers, trade assistant level, focus on maintaining systems, basic plant & animal knowledge & skills, working in community organisations, seed saving, operating water systems, basic alternative technology and natural building. This training suits the gardener, unskilled homesteader, ideal for people participating in community gardens, city farms, wwoofers etc

Certificate III in Permaculture
Trade certificate level with focus on implementation and coordinating
maintenance services, constructing and installing technologies, pc structures, water systems, compost toilets, coordinating community
projects, harvest and storage systems, conserving, drying, post harvest handling etc

Certificate IV in Permaculture
Advanced trade certificate - basic urban & rural property design (including public landscapes), operating a seed bank, planning & supervising implementation, planning production systems, appropriate technology & structures, community development, eco-enterprise skills, managing & operating a business, bioregional analysis & planning (including community economics), small group training and team supervision.

Diploma of Permaculture
Integrated design, field research, settlement design, community development planning & facilitation, strategic planning, legal & legislative requirements, tenure & legal structures, governance and tenure for communities, organisation development, eco-business management, managing overseas pc projects, basic project management, bioregional development strategies etc.

I have my first certificate III and IV courses (2 semester program)
running at present, a real joy to go beyond the PDC into the background knowledge and practical skills to make it happen and do a professional job. I'm looking forward to letting a bunch of highly competent pc practitioners and designers loose at the end of the year!!!!
:)
Ciao
Robyn

[Richard on Maui]

That Robyn Francis sure is one hell of good woman in my book.

[Ichsani]

Thanks Rob,

That sounds great that its possible to count prior learning towards certificates. I think that they are something that I will focus on doing after uni is over and I have experience in a recognised position. They are certificates that I would very much like to have, considering that I already use the permie principles in the persuit of formal education, it would be nice to do 'officially'.

Thanks again for replies

You don't happen to know where Robyn runs these courses? I like the five level approach.

Cheers
I.

[Sonya]

Re; formal recognition of practical experience in permaculture.

Hi,

After expressing an interest in studying with Robyn Francis at Djanbung Gardens, I recently received a newsletter from there detailing all their upcoming courses. Perhaps if you send an email you too can be added to the mailing list?

robyn@permaculture.com.au

I'm planning on studying with Janet Millington here on the sunny coast to receive recognition of my previous learning and experience and putting that toward a Diploma of Permaculture. It's closer to home than NSW.

I think it is important to go through the process if you are thinking about perhaps teaching permaculture in the future... this whole thread started with questions about the quality and structure of p/c teaching.

Just like garden styles, each person's education and learning about permaculture will follow a different path, and we need people of all levels and abilities involved. Teaching, sharing your knowledge and spreading the word about the benefits of p/c to people who express an interest in what we are doing, whether formally or informally is the most important part.

Cheers,
Sonya.

[RobWindt]

Robyn is at http://www.permaculture.com.au/
also see Tim at http://www.permaforesttrust.org.au/
Cheers

[Boab]

As Sonya has quite accurately pointed out, this thread was formed on the basis of the of a query formulated as a result of very poor service delivery and suboptimal standards of education in a PDC course I am currently doing.

Personally, I think the current standard of such training is irrelevant and I would tend to agree with Ischani in relation to his observations.


Accredited Permaculture Training (APT) was a response to the perceived threat of TAFEs running permaculture classes without referencing the ethics and principles, cherry picking the sellable bits and no more.

This is simply not true. It was actually a request borne out of a directed interest from the public to undertake a course in permaculture that 'had currency' in the big wide world. In order for TAFE to be able to carry out permaculture training, the institution was required to have a curriculum that was recognised both by the government and by the permaculture world. This brought about many, many months of work striving to attain a standard that not only could be delivered Australia wide but would also be recognised and accepted by all. To state that TAFE was on a marketing bend by introducing APT is not only wrong but a scurrilous accusation with no basis of fact to it, especially when one considers that APT is not conducted by TAFE alone but is actually carried out by a number of "recognised training organisations" and largely thanks to the efforts put in by TAFE.

Northey Street City Farm is one of those organisations also running APT but whether participants of that course wish to comment on its progress, or lack thereof, is up to them.

[RobWindt]

"To state that TAFE was on a marketing bend by introducing APT is not only wrong but a scurrilous accusation"

Not what I said at all, this was prior to the formation of APT. The concern was, in part, that less than complete permaculture courses would be offered.
The APT package was developed, as you point out, to create a course that "had currency" and would remain owned by the permaculture community
Cheers

[Boab]

Actually the course is owned by the government.

[Sonya]

Southern Cross Permaculture, I believe, offer a half price PDC to people who have already completed one. Not sure what is involved, but saw an ad about it in the latest Grass Roots or Earth Garden - can't remember which.

Might be worth checking out for some. I've heard good things about that PDC.

Sonya. :)

[RobWindt]

Hi Sonya, their next course starts in december
http://www.southerncrosspermaculture.com.au/

A number of places offer a discount if you have done a PDC before, can't hurt to ask
Cheers

[RobWindt]

"the course is owned by the government"

The following is from Naomi Coleman, who helped put the APT package together

For the first time, people wishing to undertake formal studies in Permaculture can do so with a nationally recognised and accredited training program. A team of committed Permaculture practitioners from 4 states formed a working group of PIL (Permaculture International Limited) to compile a framework for Certificate I - IV and Diploma of Permaculture. PIL own the copyright of the material on behalf of all Permaculture PDC graduates. They have an agreement with a Registered Training Organisation (RTO) called Hortus who have auspiced the training, and will provide the qualification, keep all records of graduates and be responsible for any auditing of the training that may occur.
http://www.southerncrosspermaculture.com.au/

Edited to add link to APT FAQs
http://www.permacultureinternational.or ... ation1.htm (http://www.permacultureinternational.org/pceduforum/accreditation1.htm)
Cheers

[Boab]

Perhaps I should have been more specific.
The course run by TAFE is owned by TAFE under licence administered by Hortus.

[Cornonthecob]

I was going to do a PDC....my employer was even going to pay for it, but have on further reflection decided not to go ahead with it.

Over the last 12 months I've lost the Permaculture 'bug'....don't get me wrong, I'm all for the principles of permaculture/organics etc....I read all I can, and take what I want to put into practise here.

But....and I don't say this to upset anyone....but for me 'permaculture' is nothing more really than a word to describe a whole bunch of things that people all over the world have been doing for years untold. It would seem that in the 70's it was given a name....which was good as it gave a focus towards better living. The name was copyrighted which most likely has maintained its value, and provided its owners with a good living.

So...I don't want a label. The little I know has had a marked influence with my neighbours, I find myself more and more talking to them and offering advice, and they actively seek this which is great.

I don't call what I do 'permaculture'.....I just do what I can and tell people to stop using poisons!

Anyways...sorry for wandering off subject..

[dewbee]

This is worth a look... i think it has only just got up and running:


http://www.gaiauniversity.org/

[jackie]

I did my PDC about 13 years ago with Rick and Naomi Colman at the Orwel St Community House in Frankston Victoria. This was prior to were they now live in Leongatha and run Southern Cross Permaculture institute. The course was fantastic then run over 2 week intensively. As a group we developed a fantastic sense of community and I still keep in contact with about 1/2 the group. We did hands on, practical work building worm farms, gardens etc. The couse at the time was taken mainly by rick and Naomi however they had "experts in their fields' in for components such as house design, biodnamics etc. Would love to do another course with them in future as I know they have come a long way since then, they live and breath permaculture from their 10 acres down there and are extreemly committed to educating people on permaculture. I'll need to wait till my kids are a bit older before leaving them for a fortnight though.
With regard to should the teachers be Permaculture Trainned, I feel and understand that those running the couse must be. That's part of the reason and structure of the consept and certificate accreditation.
With regard to should they be teacher trainned, that's a tricky one. Personaly myself being being primary trainned and having also studied masters in Envio Ed and a certificate of Adult teaching and learning I sould be saying yes, however some people are natural teachers and some good trainners and organisers. At the end of the day you want people who are pasionate and knowledgeable in their fields to be sharing this and with Permaculture being so interdisiplinary to limit these people would do the spread of permaculture a grave disservice. Being a good communicator is improtant.
To those who have had second thoughts about a design course please don't its the design principals within permacultre that are so valuable in all that you do. Read David Holmgrens book "Permaculture Principals and Practices beyond Sustainability" You will find that a good course will not only be talking permaculture it will be living Permaculture. We had one lady cook for our course whilst her husband did it. In a course I taught in (Married a participant of) The same bata system was used to care for the teachers and a couple of participants children.
Do your homework yes! Do a course Yes!

If nothing else live a great permie life.
Care for the Earth and People,
Share surplus time, energy and knowledge and
set limits to consumption and repopultation.

Love Jackie

[jackie]

Found a passage in David Holmgrens Iatest book "Permaculture Principals and pathways beyond sustainability." Page xx

[i]The Permaculture Design Course:

Most of the people involved in this movement have completed a Permaculture Design course, which for over 15 years has been the prime vehicle for permaculture inspiration and training world wide. A curriculurm was codified in 1084, but divergent evolution of both the form and content of these courses, as presented by different permaculture teachers has produced vary varied and localised experiences and understandings of permaculture.
In the early 1990's when I began to teach Design Courses regularly, I used the curriculum as a foundation but I freely adapted the format to emphasise my own understandings, experience and priorities. I also contributed to the discussion and debate within the movement about how permaculture education should develop.
The debate about the content of Permaculture design courses has become more intense in recent years. Bill Mollison and others have asserted that a failure to adhere to the curriculum, the inclusion of religious beliefs outside the scope of "design science", and a lack of attention to principles and theory is diluting and devaluing some permaculture education. Although I might agree with some of these claims about some courses, I have always found the perception of dilution has to be balanced by the value of diversity even when, like weeds, it comes in forms we don't particularly like.
I always find Davids voice to be the voice of reason with in Permaculture. When he says something it is well thought through. As the co-originatior of permaculture we should be listening to his wisdom. After all not many if any have though so long and hard about the sudject. He is a living breathing example of the best of permaculture principles and practices.

Page xx also has his diagram of the permaculture flower , the best representation I have seen of the diversity of permaculture.

Love Jackie