TIME TO WAKE UP, PEOPLE

[heuristics]

You think the “nucliar” debate will simply go away because the idea is just so incredibly unbelievably DUMB stupid, idiotic insane ... dont be so sure.
Last month Howard went to Washington for his regular suck-fest with Bush.... then he went to Canada and announced he wanted a “full and frank” debate on nuclear energy in Oz????
Guess who wants to build nuclear power stations in Oz? Westinghouse, General Electric..... these people want nuclear because they can control it the way they controlled oil for century before it ran out (what? The oil hasnt run out! Hmm, people 10 or 15 more years of oil is no “future”)
They dont want solar, they dont want bio-fuels... they cant control this technology and its raw resources .... they want nuclear because they already own the technology and they own the uranium..... US bases at Pine Gap... A railway from Adelaide to Darwin, suddenly built "now", after a century of planning, why? Answer: To facilitate US troop movements in Oz (what, you didn't see that article in the paper?)
Haliburton was involved in the construction.. (Who is Haliburton? You better bloody well Find Out) Where are the Oz uranium mines? Oh, that's right, near the US bases in central Oz....
Do you know the US bases in Central Australia are considered US territory? The Oz govt has no jurisdiction over them...

If we sit by and just think this nuclear nonsense will go away, well it wont... it's time to really get active and lobby and go to meetings and WATCH what is happening..... Howard has appointed a committee to investigate nuclear..... WHO is on the committee, WHO owns them???
A lot of permies think Peak Oil will be good because it will force a change to better, more sustainable energy..... THINK AGAIN..... we are at the cross roads... do you want nuclear power?
If not bloody well say and DO something.. start now!

[Alex M]

Haliburton was involved in the construction.. (Who is Haliburton? You better bloody well Find Out)

Scott Parkin knows a lot about Halliburton: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Parkin http://www.counterpunch.org/parkin05102005.html

The war in Iraq is literally Halliburton's war. http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=6008
http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/

Halliburton subsidiary, Kellog Brown Root, built the Alice Springs to Darwin railway. The terminal is not in Darwin but a few Kilometres South East. It actually ends at a shipping terminal. Look it up on Google Earth - "Darwin/Ghan Terminal" lat=-12.4729292982, lon=130.903813012


They dont want solar, they dont want bio-fuels... they cant control this technology and its raw resources

The area to the south west of the Ghan Station (this image is about 2 years old) is now a fuel depot - a specially-built bio-fuel depot, I am told. I am also told there are others in Adelaide and in Sydney. I have no doubt there are more in other capital cities.

Interesting, no? "They" don't just want nuclear power, Heuristics, they want Total Power.

But just who are "They"? Here's a clue: Arbeit Macht Frei.

http://43rddems.org/ http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/fe ... ncamps.htm (http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2006/010206detentioncamps.htm)


A lot of permies think Peak Oil will be good because it will force a change to better, more sustainable energy

Whatever form of energy replaces oil, who will supply that energy?
Answer: "they" will

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[Richard on Maui]

Alex, who is telling you that it is a specially built biofuels depot? Are they manufacturing biodiesel or ethanol there? That would be a factory, right? A depot is just storage, right? Storage for ethanol or biodiesel is just tanks. You could reuse the ones used for gasoline or diesel fuel.
Am I missing something?

[frosty]

spot on heuristic

if you want to know more about US bases in Australia see

http://www.bsharp.net.au

but there also another aspect - more nuclear power plants means more uranium enrichment and thus more Depleted Uranium to use for weapons

to then be used to take over the worlds resources and as a weapon of
genocide for those pesky "locals" who think they own resources needed by the USA

frosty

who will certainly continue to out there protesting against nuclear power and the US military intentions for australia

[Alex M]

Richard, I have a friend who worked on the construction. I just checked with him. The first stage, which he worked on, is petrol and diesel oil. The second stage, now under construction, is the biodiesel storage facility.

You won't have heard much about it on the regular propaganda channels, what with the so-called war on terror, but it's no secret, and it's part of a global network. Here's a few links:

http://www.nt.gov.au:8501/dberd/ldc/doc ... _Fuels.pdf (http://www.nt.gov.au:8501/dberd/ldc/documents/MR_Natural_Fuels.pdf)

http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory ... /story.htm (http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/35602/newsDate/13-Mar-2006/story.htm)

http://www.vopak.com/press/137_739.php

http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/ ... /sub95.pdf (http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/rrat_ctte/oil_supply/submissions/sub95.pdf)

http://www.nt.gov.au/dcm/publications/b ... ritory.pdf (http://www.nt.gov.au/dcm/publications/businessterritory/20050922BusinessTerritory.pdf)

http://www.nt.gov.au/

Remember the recent evening propaganda reports about Indonesia clearfelling huge swathes of rain forest to grow palm oil? No? Oh well, there IS a war on, after all. There's a war on, alright.

http://www.awionline.org/wildlife/q47-1ora.htm

http://www.bkpm.go.id/bkpm/news.php?mod ... fo_id=2635 (http://www.bkpm.go.id/bkpm/news.php?mode=baca&info_id=2635)

http://news.indahnesia.com/item/2006033 ... oducer.php (http://news.indahnesia.com/item/200603301/indonesia_poised_to_be_top_palm_oil_producer.php)

You know the Chinese curse?




"May you live in interesting times."

[heuristics]

Thanks for these links Alex - and others...

[ho-hum]

*cross posted*... will fix

[christopher]

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:57 am Post subject: idiot alert
Christopher seems determined to fuck up this forum. I am really pissed off I cannot locate the shit I had collected from the other site.

1. was a poll about the clowns on the PRI site
2. was christopher shooting his mouth off about chatters on this side anyway i grabbed it but it didnt last long, it was edited and chris was told to keep those conversations to PM's..

3. Why dont they just fuck off and take their 'agents' with them..

Murray, should lock him out again... for good.

floot

Not sure what he is going on about. None of that happened..... In fact, not ony did none of that happen, he is lieing. Prove one word of the guibberish you just said, or shut up and get back to posting about permaculture!

Back on topic, you all need to focus on making sure Australia doesn't get nukes. The US is saddled with large amounts of nuclear waste that isn't going away. It costs the taxpayers millions to keep it in unsafe above ground storage sites, while the for profit companies that generated the waste cleared millions, the clean up is costing the tax payers.

I just read that Australia is planning on "lending" the US nuke material, sending fuel out and taking waste back! That is a terrible idea for Australia! No amount f money can compensate future generations of Australians for radioactive spent rods so idiots in the US can keep the Aircon high while at the office and come home to a cool house.....[/b]

[Alex M]

Stupidity, rigorously applied. :cry: :evil:

[christopher]

I agree!

[Richard on Maui]

I agree wholeheartedly. No more uranium leave it in the ground. That phrase pops out of my mouth inadvertantly sometimes when I am doing completely unrelated things.
I only opened two of your links Alex. So, they are building a biodiesel manufacturing facility in Darwin. That is good, right? Okay, it ain't cool to clear forest to grow fuel crops, at all, especially when Orangutans are involved, but you know, at least these evil corporations are now trying to make profits from renewables...

[Alex M]

No Richard, I don't think that is good. Not at all. It's not the Orangutans' fault that we humans can't control our greed, or limit our numbers. We can't cut down enough rainforest to replace oil with biofuels. Even if we cut the whole bloody lot down, and give over more of "our" monocroplands to bio fuels, there isn't enough.

I recomend Lovelock's "The Revenge of Gaia". You might not like what he says, and I don't completely agree with him, but he knows a lot more about the environmental systems of our mother Earth than I do, and I respect his opinion, and defer to his knowledge.

I'm not being a doomsayer, either. Things are actually not as bad as they seem to be; it's just a matter of perspective. Really. Not one atom in the entire universe is out of place. Everything is exactly as it should be right now. Our challenge is to decide how they will be, and act accordingly.

[christopher]

Alex,

Good points. Amory Lovins is brilliant! His book, "Natural Capitalism" is, perhaps, the most important book I have ever read....

I wish I shared your optimism, or fatalism!

C

[Alex M]

Thanks Christopher.

Q. Is the glass half full, or half empty?

A. Depends what's in it.

BTW, I'm not attacking you, Richard. I believe the human race is on the threshold of maturity. We haven't been here long, only a few million years, and need to make some pretty mature decisions right now, and we all have to able to accept the outcome, whatever that is. It is extemely important that we be at peace with ourselves, and with all our relations. The rest will follow.

[christopher]

Alex,

I doon't think Richasrd is disagreeing with you! Sounds like sarcasm to me!

C

[Alex M]

D'oh! :lol:

[christopher]

Alex,

Hahahahahah! The biggest problem with forums is that the lack of tones and inflection of speech, the expressions communicated between people while speaking through facial muscles, etc, are all lacking, so short of inserting the appropriate emoticon, soit is difficult to know how people are saying what they are saying!

Some peopple get upset when they don't understand! :(

Others try to insert levity and humour, but with a straight face..... :lol:

Others just keep cool, and try to be objective 8)

Still, it can be confusing :?

And, some jerks (translates as "wanker" to Aussie) :jerk: post things that are incredibly innappropriate and objectifying of women, etc! :shock: which is enough to make me feel sick :sad4: and wanna hurl :pukeright:

This type of objectification makes some people feel very uncomfortable :oops:

However, sometimes, when confronted on their unsustainable and offensive sexism and objectification of women (and, humour aside, "topless" relegates women to being objects, hence the term "objectification"), those very same people have on line emotional meltdowns :cussing: , which I have to admit, and only between us, I sometimes find amusing :badgrin:

They even act as if they want to foight! :violent1: :blackeye: arguing, making spurious allegations and libelous accusations with NO substance :pain10: which I think is really a cry for help! :help: Luckily, they live far away, or I might be a wee bit intimidated :axe:

But I think, between you and me :wink: , that confusion is easily remedied by keeping an open mind.... and a sweet disposition :angel12: and this will help those with tendencies towards unhappiness from flaming out :violent3:

So before anyone gets unhappy, I suggest they have a cuppa :coffee2: and don't get upset :crybaby:

And, before I go further, I think I'll just stop :stop: Lets all just feel the love, okay? :heart:

Bye! :wave:

[murray]

great post on flames i saw:

Flames: Emotional Amplification of Text

I've been a moderator/host/forum leader for various bulletin boards and other online communities since the early 1980s; first on CompuServe, later on GEnie and AOL, and then professionally in the early days of Consensus Development. One of the behaviors that happens in online communities and that I rarely see elsewhere is flaming -- where one member writes an extremely inappropriate, typically passionately worded attack on another. Flaming behavior can hurt an online community.

It is commonly thought that flames occur because "there is very little proper policing done on the Internet" but I believe this to be false. Instead, I believe that it is the consequence of the medium primarily existing as text.

In fact, what you'll observe if you study individual flames is that they typically start as an escalation of emotion, only spiraling later into passionate and personal arguments. The only way to stop flames from destroying a community is to break this cycle.

So I've taught all my staffers over the years my ideas on what causes the cycle of flames, and how to avoid them. One particular piece of advice that I give is in regards to how emotions are amplified in the online text medium.

This happens for several different reasons:

Since text is lacking tonal and visual context, we have a tendency to over-interpret any emotional content that does exist (link to paper). In fact, we may have no better than a random chance of correctly interpreting the emotional tone of ironic vs sincere text in a message (link to Epley/Kruger paper).

In addition, we tend to respond to someone's emotional state by expressions of similar intensity (this phenomenon is known as Emotional Contagion). And the higher the level of intensity of our emotions, the less our ability to be empathetic (link to paper).

These tendencies lead into a vicious feedback cycle.

* One person starts with a very trivial or subtle emotional context, say irony.
* This is interpreted at a higher level of emotions, such as sarcasm.
* A reply is made at a similar level of emotion, for example being sarcastic.
* This, in turn, is interpreted at an even higher level of emotion, maybe a mild insult.
* In turn this is replied to at a similarly intense level.
* A flame is born!

Thus I now find that now there are certain words and phrases that I avoid using when responding to people online. I have to be very careful with irony and sarcasm, and when I use them I include symbols such as smilies to such give the emotional context that is missing from the text. I find that even the slightest hint of blame will be over-interpreted. I avoid the words "should" and "didn't", never tell someone that they forgot something, etc.

My online community staffers have found understanding this cycle an important tool in moderating the communities they lead.

http://www.lifewithalacrity.com/2006/02 ... tiona.html (http://www.lifewithalacrity.com/2006/02/flames_emotiona.html)

[Richard on Maui]

No, no sarcasm intended here. I don't think it is good that orangutans are becoming extinct. I do think it us fantastic that profit driven corporations are finally looking at renewable fuels.
It will be up to us as Permaculture designers, activists and farmers/gardeners to quickly develop multifunctional systems that prove that you don't need to deunde any more natural ecosystems in order to meet humanity's needs. That palm oil trees can actually grow very productively as windbreaking intercrops in diverse agricultural systems, cultivated ecologies, if you will, that provide right livelihoods. :D Of course, as well as getting smart about production we also need to reduce consumption, and those evil bastards in their offices probably won't be happy about that.

[Alex M]

Firstly, to get an idea of the voice I use when I write, just read with the flattest dead-pan Steven-Hawking-type voice you can imagine. :book: Or maybe Elliot Goblet.

Thanks for the flaming information Murray, you're a top bastard, and no mistake. :D I shall endeavour to be more clear, and to choose my words very carefully. Didn't St Paul write something in Corinthians about being nothing without clarity? :lol: And these emoticon thingies are a handy way to nuance text, as Chris :hello2: ably demonstrates.

Richard, the point I was making was that the corporations haven't just recently woken up to the peak oil situation. It takes a good few years for projects on the scale of a global biodiesel production and distribution network to grow from idea to completion. And this isn't a research or pilot scheme. A big, expensive plant is being built to undertake a well established process (there's a lot of pumps, welded stainless-steel pipework, crackers, filters, heaters, etc, etc in these plants). Ethanol is essential for Biodiesel production, and John W Howard has been giving a lot of support to the ethanol industry in OZ for years, despite this appearing irrational. Now it makes sense. There's often not much difference between a conspiracy and a business plan. The fact that none of this information made it into the propaganda services is not the least bit surprising, either, eh? :wink:

I'm betting there will be a nuclear power station built here, and its location, or at least a few options, have already been decided. You must have observed already, that when "they" offer us a choice, it's often between the option they want, and one that no reasonable person would ever accept. In this way, we always make the "right" choice. In the end, we'll go to the barricades over the ones planned for the Great barrier reef, Kakadu National Park, and My Back Yard, finally claiming a victory when the government is "forced" to give land to GE and Halliburton for free, at Broken Hill or somewhere where the locals "need the jobs".

[heuristics]

-E-S-U-S peeople --- can we get back on topic here (at last thnx Alex!) .... our funcking looney leaders are leading us by the nose down the garden path to Armegedd-funcking-edon and we're debating WHAT exactly??????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????

this post reminds me all tooooooo painfull of 2 farcial comedies - Life of Brian and Hitchhikers Guide to the Galexy....

in "Life" - Judith arrives with some urgent news Brian is about to be executed and Rex (John Cleese) immediately pole-vaults into action with a new "motion" for the People's Liberation Front to adopt.....

In Hitchhikers the Golgerfrenchmem (sp) "B" team have crash-landed on a Blue Planet and the leaders are busy taking baths (!)...

!!!!!!!!

I am actually being REALLY FUCKING SERIOUS here..... the stupid bastards --- our illuminated leaders want us to go "nuc-liar" and if we dont all EACH OF US get off our fat farty arses we will be having a nuclear future... not the eco-sensible sustainable energy future we deluded ourselves was what awaited the planet post Peal Oil

[Tezza]

Gee I musta missed that episode of Hitchikers

Thanks H

Tezza

[ho-hum]

tezza,

It's on now. The Fed Gub'mint have appointed a commission to discuss nuclear energy and power stations for us all.

Ziggy Zwitkowski heads it. There will be no results posted or discussion aired. Given the normal political agenda we will have nuke power stations on the drawing board by about Wednesday. [Monday is a holiday in some states]

This is another case of 'we have made up our mind' and we have appointed a board of enquiry that will agree with us. [If they dont they will not recieve a squillion dollars in sitting fees].

Heur is rightfully concerned, we all should be.

Tezza this truly is a scam of radioactive proportions that the Howard Govt is trying to foist on us.


floot

[Jez]

Solar is a real option: CSIRO Report says sun will soon match coal (http://canberra.yourguide.com.au/detail.asp?class=news&subclass=environment&story_id=483163&category=environment&m=5&y=2006)

A little report the coal industry (not to mention the Howard 'government') didn't really want leaked...and no coincidence about the timing re. the 'nucular debate.' Wasn't exactly widely reported in the MSM either... :shock: 8)

Not only does Little Johnny not read his local paper, he's also not the slightest bit interested in cutting edge Australian technology and its future applications with regard to our impending energy crisis, as detailed and endorsed by our top scientific organisation.

He would however, like to enrich GE/Westinghouse (not to mention uranium which is the real initial aim of these 'discussions' IMO...the power plants themselves are a political risk that Howard will avoid like the plague) and crawl further up the US drainpipe to nowhere...preferably being portrayed as a sensible visionary who smells like roses the whole way.

[Tezza]

Why should the little wanker care hes leaving soon Expect an annoucment soon regarding his retirement.....Good riddence.....

He should be called Thunderbird 6 ..hes such an "G W" puppett,Pretty good i cant see his strings

He dont care he wont be around in a few years,Why should he worry about the fall-out..(sorry).....

Funny how he allways wanted to be remembered just like his Previous Bum boys.....

Hell be remembered along with his cronies as A Traitor....A modern day Nero
hes fiddling, as we all burn under the Aussie Sun....

The ones i feel sorry for will be his decendents........


Funny how a Country was built using Convict Labour,It is now Run By "Liberal Convicts"......

Constable Tezza

[Richard on Maui]

Heuristics mate, its alright. He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy.

YOu know, a most disturbing thing for me was to hear Tim Flannery, whom I very much respect, and whom I know a lot of people in here love, advocating to Phillip Adams that we think seriously about nuclear power as an alternative to global warming. Sorry Tim, but you sound a lot like a dickhead when you talk like that.
Let's see about covering every roof with solar panels, and then see what our emmissions look like, and then have the nuclear debate. Bastards!

Alex, interesting about the ethanol. I would have thought little Johnny was trying to be good mates with the cane farmers or something. But hell you're probably right. Bunch of bastards.

I do think that having a biofuels infrastructure will be a better thing than not having one though, when all is said and done. Like I say, it is up to us to make sure that they produce the feedstocks in a good way...

[Sonya]

My two cents worth on nuclear energy...

Listened to Professor Ian Lowe and Pauline Rigby speak last week at World Environment Day festival and have been reading Prof Lowe's book 'A Big Fix'. Pauline Rigby is an ethicist and has made her life's work seeking the real truth about uranium and nuclear energy. Prof Lowe is a critic of Howards nuke plan and the panel he has just appointed. He is pro-alternative sustainable energy resources.

By the way - Prof Lowe's solution is a mix of energy sources. eg - solar, wind, geothermic, tidal - aligned with permaculture principles.

In his book Lowe states that the 'known resources of high-grade uranium ore are equivalent to about 20 years use at the present rate (not taking population growth into account) and that nuclear power will only be enough to produce about 10 per cent of the world's electricity.'

So - all the safety and environmental issues aside - and I am sure Howard can find (or is that fund) as many scientists to say he is correct as the environmental community has to say he is incorrect - it seems that the resources will only provide for a very short term solution.

[This leads onto a whole new debate about scientific research funding and manipulation by those paying for it for the results they want found... anyway back to nuclear energy.]

Huge amounts of money spent on infrastructure, even larger amounts spent on safe and secure storage for millions of years... and it will only provide 10 per cent of the global electricty for 20 years.

I believe this is Howard's most dangerous legacy. Someone I know remarked the other day; "didn't we fight the nuclear issue in the 70's?"

By the way, Pauline Rigby also had a great amount of info on radiation poisoning, particularly relevant to Gulf War Vets.

There is also a paper available called Nuclear Power: no solution to climate change.

We must fight this - it is something that will affect us forever... our grandchildren and their grandchildren.

I believe it is a permaculture issue - we are more informed about the environment, communities, food etc than most. Poisoning of our air, water, soil and the future is the issue here.

We cannot let Ziggy turn us all into Stardust

I'll leave you with a quote from Prof Lowe:
"If nuclear power is the answer, it must have been a pretty stupid question."

[Mungbeans]

"If nuclear power is the answer, it must have been a pretty stupid question."
I suspect it is the mining companies posing the question.

I'm looking into my [cracked] crystal ball and predicting:

Nuclear plants found to be viable, but no immediate plans to build any for whatever reason. However they will find that it is prudent to mine more uranium for our future use (and sell it overseas in the meantime) as well as recommendations that Australia begin its own enrichment program for 'security reasons' - ie we only sell enriched for energy producing purposes.

[Alex M]

I may be drawing a long bow on the biodiesel & John W Howard connection, and yes, there is an element of sucking up to the sugar lobby there. But I suspect there's more to it.

The ethanol industry itself is subsidised - by us - to the tune of $65 million. http://www.chemlink.com.au/ethanol.htm I wonder what the solar industry could do with assistance like that? A lot more than it can with nothing, I reckon.

That's not really what's bothering me about the whole thing. It's the way information itself is manipulated. It's difficult enough to decide what is the right thing to do when you have a clear understanding of the facts. If knowledge is power, then we're in real trouble.

A couple of examples to illustrate: Until the 1920s, American farmers could produce their own fuel - "power alcohol" - from their own farm crops. Prohibition, which is credited to the temperance movement, put an end to that. The first alcohol product targeted by the government enforcers was not the "demon drink", but fuel - the stills on farms. Information was manipulated, and well meaning community groups where taken for a ride, so that the broader community suffered. Who benefitted from prohibition? Standard Oil, for one. (It took some searching to find anything on this little-known fact, and surprise, surprise, I found it on a permaculture site): http://www.permaculture.com/alcohol/book/intro.shtml

At about the same time, the women's sufferage movement decided to make a public demostration demanding the right for women to smoke in public. The campaign was successful, but the women were patsies for the tobacco lobby, who devised and coordinated the campaign with the aid of a major public relations company. This is explained well in the book Toxic Sludge is Good for You, which I urge everyone to read. http://www.prwatch.org/books/tsigfy.html

We usually think of "the big lie" as the product of Nazi propagandist Joseph Goebbels, but he was a student of Edward L Bernays - the father of public relations. Nazi propaganda had its roots in American industrial culture. http://www.prwatch.org/prwissues/1999Q2/bernays.html

Whatever the best solution to our energy "needs" is, I don't think it's right that the orangutans, or any of our other relations, should have to make way for it. We have to be prepaired to pay the full price on our own, to take responsibility.

[Alex M]

We cannot let Ziggy turn us all into Stardust

That's brilliant Sonya. :lol: I'll be looking out for the bumper sticker. 8)

Mungbeans, I think you have a very good crystal ball. :thumbup:

[frosty]

Listened to Professor Ian Lowe and Pauline Rigby speak last week at World Environment Day festival and have been reading Prof Lowe's book 'A Big Fix'. Pauline Rigby is an ethicist and has made her life's work seeking the real truth about uranium and nuclear energy. Prof Lowe is a critic of Howards nuke plan and the panel he has just appointed. He is pro-alternative sustainable energy resources.




By the way, Pauline Rigby also had a great amount of info on radiation poisoning, particularly relevant to Gulf War Vets.

Hi sonya

I know Pauline ...... met her when she came over here with Pentagon whistleblower Doug Rokke

we live close to Lancelin defence training area and the use of depleted uranium weapons by US forces is a big issue ....... this is the same stuff that made the gulf War vets sick and is killi g them

and Doug Rokke iss ure that if it hasnt already been used on in training on Aussie soil then it will be :evil: both here and at Shoalwater in qld and other trainign areas howard has "given" to the yanks

but then Pauline probably said all this :cry:

have you seen the movie Blowin in the wind " if you havent see http://www.bsharp.net.au every aussie should see it ( unashamed plug :wink: )


this is all part of the nuclear debate ........ in fact some people think Australia wanting to enrich uranium is all about producing depleted uranium for weapons


frosty

[Sonya]

Hi Frosty,

thanks for the tip on the movie, I'll chase it up. There is a lot of info about, it just doesn't make it into the mainstream media.

Forums such as this as a way of spreading information and allowing people to research and come to their own conclusion, rather than being fed the information from the government through their team of media people.

I have also seen the movie 'The End of Suburbia' - it is an American movie about how badly designed our suburbs are, the takeover and manipulation of places such as Wal-Mart and the peak oil crisis - I is a team of scientists who believe we are headed for major changes and that there are solutions - which align with permaculture ideas.

Another movie around is "The Power of Community: How Cuba survived peak oil". Geoff Lawton showed it up here on the Sunshine Coast when he was here recently and the Chevallum Permaculture Club, of which I am a member, is having a screening on June 28 at 7pm.

Cuba had to change its ways when the Soviet Union collapsed and massive subsidies of imported oil and food to Cuba ceased. They faced a food and transportation crisis.

Their solutions?: urban gardens, organic farms, local community based focus, learning to live with less... sound familiar???

Another quote from Prof Ian Lowe:
"Live more simply, so that other may simply live."

Sonya :)