biodynamics

[bazman]

Is anyone on the forum using biodynamics from within their permaculture systems? Over the weekend I did a moon planting course which touched a little on biodynamics, I was wondering if anyone here is using it or has used it in the past?

I still have so much to learn.

[ecodharmamark]

G'day Bazman,

Not (yet) using biodynamic principles myself, but Tony and Nada Smark of Woodbrook Farm (Harcourt, Vic) are. We visited their farm last year as part of our PDC. They have an integrated biodynamic/permaculture vineyard including orchard and poultry systems, and a timber forestry lot.

This is a very impressive PC site, and the benefits of BD are pretty obvious when you compare the healthy vigour of crops growing on this site with those of the nieghboring properties.

I'm sure Tony and Nada would be only too happy to provide you with all the information you might need. They are truly beautiful people.

Tony and Nada Smark
Woodbrook Farm
Gaasch's Road
Harcourt
VIC

03 5474 2131

Cheerio,

Mark.

[Rob6014]

My brother-in-law has transformed his dryland farm in the mallee country to an organic/biodynamic farm. He has just got his NASSA certification. This is a broad acre wheat farm which was once windswept sand. To see it now - well, it is nothing short of astonishing. Here on our own small block, we use the basic biodynamic principles but have not taken much notice of the moon-planting guide.

[lillypilly]

we have been trying out biodynamic planting in our garden. this year we have been foolowing the moon path and planting the seeds for what is best to grow. The weather has been unbelivible. two warm days before planting then a wonderful shower. we are wanting to try these practices on my parents in laws farm and see how things go. its all a learn experance. this yearr i hope to join the biodymanic gardening group even though we dont have a group down here, im sure i will get a better understanding from it.

[bazman]

I like the idea of it, and will try introducing small steps to start, using antipodean astro calendar is helping and i'm keen on trying the Cow pat pit concentrate in the orchard.

It's all quite complex and I have so much to learn, doing a weekend course which covers biodynamics would be good.

[mariet]

It's amazing isn't it how there is always so much more to learn. I really do intend to follow the moon planting for this year. I usually find that I'm not mindful enough at the time and end up planting out of sync because it's nearly too late for the season or just after a good rain.
I just can't get my head around the total lack of logic about the stirring thing and the cow's horn. It all seems a bit hocus pocus for me but IT WORKS!! Everyone I've spoken to who has tried and followed the prescribed methods has been amazed at the results.
I was reading the biodynamic magazine (very interesting) and was very interested to read an article about use of manure only to feed a green manure crop preceeding a food crop and not using manure directly on food crops. It will take some change on my part but I'm willing to give it a go. There's a day for beginners in Ballarat coming up soon, I'm looking forward to learning more.

[bazman]

What they need to do is make a website which tells you what to do today, pull weeds, slash, don't plant seeds etc... drink beer watch TV. heh.

The calendar is just scary, ahhh all those symbols. all those new words which I can't for the life of me pronounce.

I could see a website or computer program which would help you in which days and times to do things, which shows the next few days, and where you could ask it when to plant seed next.

[danjo]

Damn good idea, Bazman..........When will your new site be up?!!!
i like to be told to drink beer too! :)

[SueinWA]

There are a lot of people who pooh-pooh the biodynamic methods. And I do admit that it sounds like a lot of hocus-pocus. But more and more, I wonder if the problem is more with the "translation" than the method?

I wonder if it is possible that Steiner found a method that works, but misinterpreted what he discovered? Like someone in the Dark Ages thinking that young plants growing in spring caused the rain to come?

There seems to be too much of it that works to pass it all off as nonsense.

For instance: the Biodynamic method says to pack manure into a cow horn and bury it point-up in the soil. Would you get the same results if you mixed powdered cow horn with manure and put it into a covered (but bottomless) container in the ground? And what if you didn't stir it, but had a pump hose laying on the bottom of the tank, that mixed it while you were off doing something else?

I guess some people may be attracted by the mysteriousness of the method, while others are put off by it.

I wonder where I could find some cow horns?

Sue

[mariet]

Hey Bazman, I really like your idea of getting the checklist, could do it for your local area. And the idea of being instructed when to take a day off is brilliant. I could do with some of those. The beerdrinking I could take too. I must admit the rest does sound a bit like even more hard work. Now if we could take some of the hard out of the work.....
And Sue, I think only the future will tell how the concepts will be modified to get the same results and demystify. I suppose you're right. Some love the sense of magical and others are just too practical.

[heuristics]

I think the research being done into the soil-food web by Elaine Ingham hold some of the answers (perhaps). This “scientific” method explores the benefits of aeration, - maybe that is what Steiner was advocating, all the stirring is a way to aerate the brew.
(Brew: Back to the beer!)

[mariet]

With all the :evil: blackbirds stirring around in my garden at present I should really be getting somewhere! Maybe they are actually all my little helpers!

[Fozzie]

Just wanting to bump up this thread to find out how everyone is going with their biodynamic adaptations in their garden. (hopefully there's one or two people who are still members??). :)

I'm hoping to incorporate some of the methods into my gardening, I'm *just* getting my head around moon planting and if I can find an extra few cow horns I'd like to start the process of making BD500 this Autumn.

[Dreamie]

I always try to look at things from an engineers view point so the follow may be wrong but this is how I see it.


There are a lot of people who pooh-pooh the biodynamic methods. And I do admit that it sounds like a lot of hocus-pocus. But more and more, I wonder if the problem is more with the "translation" than the method?

I wonder if it is possible that Steiner found a method that works, but misinterpreted what he discovered? Like someone in the Dark Ages thinking that young plants growing in spring caused the rain to come?

There seems to be too much of it that works to pass it all off as nonsense.


There is logic in the moon plantings, in that the moon has an effect on the oceans and therefore has an effect on all bodies of water. Some plants have different levels of water and different ways of using water and therefore the moon would have an effect on the inner water of the plant. If you disturb a plant when the water is in a critical part of that plant you will have a huge effect on its ability to grow. This is why you will notice differences in planting different crops at different times.



For instance: the Biodynamic method says to pack manure into a cow horn and bury it point-up in the soil. Would you get the same results if you mixed powdered cow horn with manure and put it into a covered (but bottomless) container in the ground?


The cow’s horn is a store of beneficial bugs and insects that pass over from preparation to preparation. If you clean the bulls horn you will remove all the bugs etc and therefore increase the time required for the manure to turn into its beneficial product. When you place the cow’s horn in the ground it enables all forms of beneficial bacteria and animals to turn the manure into humus and castings. You then want to mix it so you are not adding to much air to the mix and then when you apply it make sure it stays in droplet form so that the bacteria is still intact (Similar to inoculant on seeds).



And what if you didn't stir it, but had a pump hose laying on the bottom of the tank, that mixed it while you were off doing something else?

I guess some people may be attracted by the mysteriousness of the method, while others are put off by it.

I wonder where I could find some cow horns?

Sue

Each of the preparations provide a certain nutrient to the soil or the plant. The preparations are listed below. Some good information here, each preparation is shown as well as the nutrient that is added to the soil.
http://cityfoodgrowers.com.au/biody_prep.php?phpMyAdmin=Z%2CIJJ48cThaTKeB7RCzlHY x-gCf

500 – Cow horn with manure
501 – Crushed Quartz – Silica
502 - Yarrow flowers matured in a stag’s bladder, hung up in a tree over summer; said to attract light forces and connect the soil to cosmic influences.
503 - Chamomile flowers stuffed into cow’s intestines and buried over winter; said to help the breakdown of the compost.
504 - Stinging nettle buried for a year; said to bring intelligence to the soil.
505 - Oak bark buried in a sheep skull in a damp place over winter; helps attract earth forces to the soil.
506 - Dandelion flowers buried over winter in a cow’s mesentery; said to bring life forces to the soil and the plants which grow in it.
507 - A solution of valerian flowers, sprayed over the compost heap; said to bring warmth to the compost.
508 - This is a solution of equisetum - horsetail - heavily diluted and sprayed on vines to bring a drying effect. Useful in a damp season, helpful in countering mould.

[Fozzie]

Thanks Dreamie! Great post! :)

For anyone who is wanting a book that really does explain the BD 500 preparation, including why it is stirred, why it is packed into a cow's horn etc... Organic Gardening with Worms demystifies it!

I bought a book "Biodynamic Preparations" which is unfortunately all fluff and no logic.... doesn't do much to the Biodynamic "movement" if the books are too "fluffy" to read... makes it seem like a religious cult or the likes. Where as the worm book made me want to incorporate some of the biodynamic aspects into my garden. Although I'm not sure how I'd go about stuffing oak bark into a sheep's skull!

[eco4560]

Purple Pear is a biodynamic practitioner - PM him and I'm sure he'll give you the good oil on it.

[Dreamie]

Thanks Dreamie! Great post! :)

For anyone who is wanting a book that really does explain the BD 500 preparation, including why it is stirred, why it is packed into a cow's horn etc... Organic Gardening with Worms demystifies it!

I bought a book "Biodynamic Preparations" which is unfortunately all fluff and no logic.... doesn't do much to the Biodynamic "movement" if the books are too "fluffy" to read... makes it seem like a religious cult or the likes. Where as the worm book made me want to incorporate some of the biodynamic aspects into my garden. Although I'm not sure how I'd go about stuffing oak bark into a sheep's skull!

This is my feeling exactly. While biodynamics is a bit of fluff, it is hard for the main stream to test and accept it. If some real meat was put on the bones then it would start to get a bigger following. It needs to be translated into something that can be understood by the majority of farmers, unless this occurs it will be seen as alternative and therefore not accepted.

[purplepear]

I don't think BD can be dumbed down for wide acceptance Dreamie. People need to come to an understanding that there is more in nature than what science has "seen/ proved and when that realization comes so to will an understanding of BD - in the mean time using the preps because it works and it don't cost much will give results and if it don't what have you really lost.

[Fernando Pessoa]

I like BD good stuff,have seen great success with this,I have a mate who runs sheep with chickens in a organic banana farm using BD methods and controlling the whole lot with two big mareema dogs,thats function stacking!!!!.....he has been doing this for 10 years,light years ahead....on a side note if you would like a moon planting calendar,or mini daily planet charts
please write to
Thomas Zimmer
Mount Cougal Road
Tellebudgera Valley
4228 Qld
The calendars are $10 and planet charts $2 he will give you a discount for bulk orders include postage which can be sorted at the post office.
Thomas and the many gifted people that live in and around this particular piece of paradise are some of the most gifted earth stewards I have ever known,so that's why I am giving him the plug.
Best wishes Fernando
To all the BD poo pooers(nice pun Fernando),It works,why because it does....Bob Marley says you cant argue about God.Why? because we don't know can't know we are only human,BD is a little like God and because we are mere mortals we can not compute such complexities.So we must reason them.Does BD increase soil fertility and yields?...yes...why?....how?.....who cares.

[purplepear]

Shameless plug for a little on Biodynamics from my web site
http://www.purplepear.net.au/biodynamics.html

[Fozzie]

Great website Purplepear!

I have been trying to get ahold of the Bio-Dynamic Gardeners Association Inc so that I can join to learn more, do workshops, learn about the preps etc, but so far the number has always rung out, twice an answering machine has come on, with the person giving the contact details for other people to contact... except they talk so fast it's impossible to write down the number, or double check it.

The other website biodynamics.net.au looks good, except there doesn't seem to be workshops in Victoria... so if I was to join, how would I be able to purchase the preps if there is no workshops to attend locally?

[mischief]

Thanks for the link purplepear, I really need to get a calendar at least and was pleased to see that its for the southern hemisphere.
Its hard enough to get started on something completely new and more so when you have to 'translate' it.

Someone suggested to me that I get hold of the local freezing works/meat works to see what they do with any horns etc and that they probably biff them so they might be willing to sell them for not very much.
Just thought, the local home kill butcher might occassionally get cows with horns go through him too,not sure that he'd give the intestines though.

On the burying things bit, I've been thinking about that and I think what you do when you bury the filled horns in a specific way is creat an environment conducive to particular beneficial bacteria.

I'm sure there IS a logical reason why these things work.
I am willing to believe that biodynaics works just on the reasoning that Bach flower remedies works on my animals; they obviously dont know what Im doing with them and I know thats got nothing to do with biodynamics, but its working along a similar track and equally puzzling.

When I read Maira Thuns's book and saw that they do not water after the first time when the seedlings are planted out I decided that this was worth looking into purely on that point alone.
The trick is to get to the point where we are following the procedures properly.
Its only then that I think you can safely say that something is or is not working.

I cant say for sure whether planting by the moon works or not because I quite often miss by sometimes just a day, but I'm pretty sure it has worked.
We were supposed to write down when we did what, so we could see what the differences were but ....well, there are alot of excuses.

Hopefully the more we do this, the more we get used to the concept of it and get more proficient at it.

Hope to see more from you on this Mr. Pear so we can learn to think with this concept.

[purplepear]

The other website biodynamics.net.au looks good, except there doesn't seem to be workshops in Victoria... so if I was to join, how would I be able to purchase the preps if there is no workshops to attend locally?
They can post them to you.
Mischief - there is a risk in getting too seroius so it runs your life. In the first instance the calendar is a guild and it gets you into a rhythm with nature and the cosmos. It makes you aware of the moon phases and the zodiac positions and the effect of these on plants (and us)

I like to trust that the work of Maria was in good faith and I accept what she says as ok. One thing on writing down and doing your own tests was that I got great lettuce (leaf) from beds prepared for strawberries (fruit) in my garden at Dungog. I did not do extensive trials like Maria has done but it may prove to disprove if I had.

Something is working if you "feel" it is working and people are commenting on "something" right about what you are growing.

Intent - Observation - Intuition

[Fernando Pessoa]

The moon can move huge bodies of water,tides...why could it not move the sap in a plant.Try moon mowing,if you have a lawn.Cut at the right time your lawn will give you much less work,not that i have a lawn.i find them repulsive.
Fernando

[mischief]

Ah sorry wasnt supposed to be too serious, the point I was trying to make was that I couldnt see how people can say something does not work when they have not followed all the procedure.
To be honest our life has got so chaotic that we arent following anything and have trouble keeping up with our shadows.
I will get at least one of those books so we can get an understanding of how we can use it here.

[purplepear]

Please indulge me to add this passage from a book I am reading on the Agriculture course that led to biodynamics. The book is by Peter Selg and he says something better than I can. It goes something like this:

With the fading of “instinctive agricultural wisdom”- emanating from ancient knowledge and sustained by traditions passed on through the generations-and the rise of a modern, materialistic and casual view of nature, the more subtle, interconnected and hidden ways of nature had been increasingly banished from awareness and from agricultural practices. According to Steiner, the significance of Biodynamics does not lie in the applying of certain new substances, methods and procedures, but in fundamentally reestablishing a real knowledge of nature and a capacity to engage with it-with central inclusion of cosmic forces which facilitate and determine life on earth; “Nature and the working of the spirit throughout nature must be recognized in a large, all embracing dimension”

[Woz]

PP, how would Biodynamic Preparations compare to Biofertilizer? eg - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jOUK0yj9zs

Seems like there may be almost the same ingredients used overall.

[purplepear]

Who can truly know Woz - it would depend on many imponderables and abide with the individual.

[Woz]

True, although not the pearls of wisdom for which I was hoping. ;-)

[purplepear]

2
When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.

Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.

Therefore the Master
acts without doing anything
and teaches without saying anything.
Things arise and she lets them come;
things disappear and she lets them go.
She has but doesn't possess,
acts but doesn't expect.
When her work is done, she forgets it.
That is why it lasts forever.
________________________________________

[Woz]

Touche!

[eco4560]

Aha! Purple Pear and Grahame are one and the same!
Go on - the game's up now...
Or do you just go to the same library???

[matto]

Looking at BD 500, I think it was called this because it was found that something like 500 (b)illion microbes were in a single (t)spoon, or something like that.
As with the COAS version of biofertiliser, BD500 uses the poop of the lactating female. COAS has found that the lactobacillus subtitlo is a probiotic and very good at healing the earth. Biofertiliser is also brewed with the yeast added to increase the microflora in the brew, possibly in the same way that burying the 500 does in the horns.
As far as I know 500 is just manure put into horns at the right phase of the moon, whereas the biofertilsers uses sugars to increase the microbial life. Paul Taylor had talks with Eugenio Gras about aerating the biofertilisers, which they were going to test. This would be similar to stirring of the 500.

[purplepear]

My understanding is that the 500, 501, 502, 503 and so on were just codes perhaps applied to avoid controversy during the days of Nazi Germany. In our local group we try to not use the "codes" and call the preps by their names - Horn Manure, Horn Silica, Chamomile Prep and so on.

It is no doubt that it is the beneficial bacteria and fungi that make the preps work but they work in different way to normal fertilizers, acting on etheric life forces that are difficult to get your head around sometimes.

The stiring no doubt adds oxygen to enliven the bacteria in the brew but it needs to be seen from a perspective similar to homoeopathy where rhythm acts to potentize the substance. The rhythm of the reversing vortex sees "order" and "chaos" applied to the mixture.

If you are familiar with the work of Emoto on water then you may realize the importance of "intent" in the stirring process. I sometimes think you could use chocolate cake if you stirred with the right intent.

Dear Eco I do think G man and I are on a similar journey and that I need to fess up and admit that yes Grahame and I and indeed everyone are all one and the same but we use various Heteronyms depending on the situation at hand.

[matto]

Seems you are right, PurplePear. I just checked a paper I have and the Total Viable microbial count for Horn Manure is more like 240 billion to one level teaspoon.
And there is more going on in Bio-dynamic that can't be discounted.
I was just reading your website about the fish preparation and comfrey tea. What is the 'aerator stone' ? Is it a pump or some kind of bubbling stone?

[Grahame]

Nice one Purple,

I don't always like to explain things in a way that they 'make sense', because as soon as they make sense some of the quality is lost. But this is an example of how I see intention might be considered in logical terms.

Lets say I am planting a couple of rows of carrots, the first row I plant with my daughter, she is excited about it, I'm excited because she is, we tell little stories about what is going to happen to them. She tells me how big they will get and how we will all sit and eat them together, or she might take some to kinder to share with friends. The energy going into those carrots goes far beyond the simple act of planting carrots. And because we are planting with such love and attention, sub-consciously we take more care with how we are planting them, there will be a subtle difference in the way we handle them.

Now take the second row, I am planting them by myself, I've got a million other jobs on my mind that I want to do, I want to be doing them now. But, I just have to get the carrots in because this is my last chance and all of my winter crop depends on getting them in or we may go hungry. The energy is very negative towards those carrots, I am distracted and consequently I have not taken the sub-conscious care of them, I plant them slightly differently. That attention can mean all the difference to carrots.

This is just a simple example of how I believe deeper and more subtle energies work.

Intention and attention means a whole lot, especially when you add it up over a whole garden and a whole life.

[purplepear]

Matto - for the fish and comfrey, we use a stone like they use in fish tanks to inject air. This is weighted and runs off a solar panel so the pump runs when the sun shines on it and pumps air to the air stone at the bottom of the barrel. This ensures an aerobic break down.

Grahame has nailed my thoughts on intent well - good job g man - I think this is what makes a gardner with "green thumbs" who does better than the guy next door who uses the same knowledge.