Permaculture's greatest challenge?

[Theron]

Hello everyone,

I'm working on a project to identify the greatest challenges to the progression of the permaculture movement. My question comes from the desire to see the movement excelerate by identifying our possible road blocks and developing solutions for them.

I'm attempting to get as much feedback on this as possible so don't hold back. The results from this thread may go in an article or may end up being the catalyst for the formation of an organization meant to meet the needs we identify.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
Theron

[purplepear]

I think part of the reason may be that many people want to do studies into why and not enough are out building models to show how. There has been plenty of discussion in the past and you may wish to do a search

[pebble]

Hi Theron, welcome to the forum :-) Perhaps you could tell us what part of the world you are in, and what the project is you are working on? I'm also curious what your involvement with permaculture is. I think you will get different replies if you introduce yourself and your work a bit more.

[kimbo.parker]

The science itself is kosher - an earth science rich in theory and application.
The concept of systems design modelled on natural systems as a way of saving the planet is also kosher.

Thinking, that any affluent western culture is going to be able to surmount its Greedist Paradigm with Permaculture is 'cross eyed badger spit'.

Permacultue works with struggling demographics in third world situations....it translates to immediate improvements in wealth, comfort and power.

Permaculture objectives; which are fundamentally rooted in turning the destruction of environmental systems around,,,,,completely fail as attractive options to the herd.

Permaculture means less to them because it does, really and actually mean less comfort in consumption.

Permaculture has its die hards (salute, taste the ground, spit, ruined!).....people who took it all very seriously and became transitioned, progressing to the level of net producer organisms.

Those folk are so rare that they just don't represent 'the look of Permaculture'.

The problem with gutting Permaculture and dumbing the whole thing down to some gardening bullshit, that the herd can grasp, it that the entire 'brand' has become worthless crap!

Pulp; some stupid new marketing edge for the nursery industry - the ' look ' of green.

Permaculture is like Girlfriend Magazine, Famous, Vogue, New Idea, Womans Weekly, FHM, and anything media that feeds the Greedist Paradigm.

Permaculture has been irretrievably compromised!

Kill it.
and dance afterwards.

old, redundant, a perversion - god dam heartbreaking!

the good news:" The Culture "..... provides models that have a resilience against corruption by humans.

move on ,,,,quickly, don't look back.

k

ps i / we have a certified permaculture designer as a captive hostage. We punish that bastard for the current state of what he told us was going to save the planet.
when we encounter a post like the one that fed this - we take that captive arse-hole, and we torture him.
we think there should be more of 'holding designers accountable'.

if you want to re-jig permaculture amid the hi-jack,,,,i suggest a hand picked team of radical bad bastards charged with seeking out and punishing permaculture deserters.....i volunteer.
k

[eco4560]

Get yourself a copy of Permaculture Pioneers. There's a very similar discussion in the book.

[Theron]

Ah yes, introductions... Sorry 'bout that.
As purplepear pointed out (and I agree) there are a wealth of people doing studies and not a enough building models. I've been spending too much of my time building models and this is my first go at building a study... so my forum etiquette is a little off the mark.

Please check out my profile (http://www.permacultureglobal.com/users/508-theron-beaudreau) on the WPN.

Regarding why I ask this question and what kind of responses I'm looking for... I'm considering starting a steering committee to develop a new cooperative organization that can identify, target and remove barriers to the progression of permaculture. Well, that is were I started anyway... based on the feedback I've gotten from other forums, I'm thinking that such an organization may not necessarily be the most effective means of accomplishing those ends. Thus my research continues until I can identify what the best approach is for meeting the challenges of permaculture progression.

Hope this clarifies my intentions a bit...
Theron

[Theron]

Thanks eco4560... I'm traveling at the moment but I'll try to pick up a copy as soon as I settle in at my next destination.

[kimbo.parker]

On The Death of Permaculture Education (http://www.vladislavdavidzon.com/2011/11/27/the-death-of-permaculture-education/)

November 27th, 2011 | Author: vladislav (http://www.vladislavdavidzon.com/2011/11/27/the-death-of-permaculture-education/#)
The current permaculture educational model, rooted in traditional western model of information-feeding, was simply never designed to meet the challenge of correcting false information present between most people’s ears. That model is dead as a vehicle towards widespread dissemination of nature-inspired design. We must accept that death and allow the remains to compost into healthy soil for new models to emerge. May this article respectfully provoke dialogue and action, expediting the composting process and clearing the way for the birth of new models.

http://www.vladislavdavidzon.com/2011/11/27/the-death-of-permaculture-education/

[purplepear]

I believe there is some truth to the notion that being talked at for two weeks can miss the mark in changing people effectively. The group dynamic of a PDC can have great effect in motivating people towards change but to be given the confidence to "do it" is a key factor. Practical "hands-on" learning is important to show people that not only is it worthwhile but doable. Can we do this in two weeks? I think it is done here at Purple Pear but mostly people get the opportunity to see first hand the system working as they eat the food produced and become a part of the life on the farm. They are exposed to not only food production but social and economic aspects of permaculture. I think the apprentership/intern gives people a chance to develop skills in situations where the participant does not have a mentor or access to land for ongoing study.

Local permaculture groups are important in providing some of the mentoring necessary and we need experienced Permaculturists to remain engaged in these groups well past the usefulness to themselves of membership.

[kimbo.parker]

http://enkidu.anarchyplanet.org/certification-in-permaculture-education/

.....Mollison refused to certify individual teachers, claiming that the two-week Design Course needed to include all the material in the Pc Designer’s Manual.....

else the thing would turn into some gardening bullshit.

i was there when we let the organic gardeners in,,,,i said it was a mistake.
Bill said it was a mistake, crusty, gnarly systems designer....

but PAWA (perma assoc west aust.) had to be popular.....PAWA aint too popular in 2012 i can tell ya....all but dead it is.

we need a name for the ones who seriously do 'old permaculture' - i find that 'wankers' does not quite bestow the level of reverence i believe is appropriate.:)

[kimbo.parker]

x Shoot Them Later (Eccentric, Culture Ulterior, AhForgetIt tendency [t. rated Integration Factor 73% vessel rated 99%])

Here in the bare dark of night
A calm unhurried eye draws sight
-We see in what we think we fear
The cloudings of our thought made clear.


keep banging the rocks together guys
o-o

[pebble]

Interesting article but too flawed. Firstly, it would have been better if he had talked about US permaculture specifically, because from what I can gather from these kinds of critiques, US pc and culture in general is problematic in its own specific ways. PC education certainly isn't dead where I live and not in many other parts of the world from what I can tell. I see the influence of pc all over the place here, just in more subtle ways. That suits me, because I don't believe in the big, heroic, this Thing will save us model anyway. What we need is ideas that seep into the population and take it over. This is certainly happening in NZ. And not from PC alone (whoever thought PC should save the world anyway??).

I note that the writer invokes the socratic method. I wonder if he learned that in his state, feed 'em information education system ;-). I'm not saying the basic premise (that pc education needs to diversify) isn't right, just he didn't make a very convincing case. I also think that feed 'em info works well for certain kinds of minds, so lets not throw out the baby with the bath water. And taking such a negative view, rather than looking at the problem for the solution is very un-pc ;-)

I'm not sure we need a new name either. What's wrong with 'permaculture' (for the gardeners that you despise so much Kimbo) and 'permaculture designers' for the Serious Ones? Other people have tried coming up with new terms (Paul Wheaton has a whole thread on this I think), but it seems like reinventing the wheel to me. If you come up with a new name, how would you introduce it, given the fundamentally anarchic nature of the the permaculture movements?

Permaculture Wankers would work as a colloquialism ;-p

[kimbo.parker]

i appreciate the pebs post - points taken - i agree - and i accept the kiwi context ( never doubted it) - a negative view ?.....surely relative - say to anyone else's positive view; the allegedly negative view is likely some ones positive.

The Land of Infinite Fun


“There was only one problem with the Land of Infinite Fun, and that was if you ever did lose yourself in it completely – as Minds occasionally did,,you could forget that there was a base reality at all.

In a way this didn’t really matter, as long as there was somebody back where you came from tending the hearth. the problem came when there was nobody left or inclined to tend the fire, to mind the store, look after the house-keeping (or however you wanted to express it), or if somebody or something else – somebody or something else from the outside, the sort of entity that came under the general heading of an ‘Out Of Context Problem’,

for example - decided they wanted to meddle with the fire in that hearth, the stock in the store, the contents and the running of the house;

if you’d spent all your time having Fun, with no way back to reality, or just no idea what to do to protect yourself when you did get back there, then you were vulnerable.

In fact you were probably dead or enslaved. “

from page 140, Excession – A Culture Novel – by Ian M. Banks. (copyright owner)

[reproduced here, for non profit academic consideration, study and discussion, author acknowledged].

[Pakanohida]

http://enkidu.anarchyplanet.org/certification-in-permaculture-education/

.....Mollison refused to certify individual teachers, claiming that the two-week Design Course needed to include all the material in the Pc Designer’s Manual.....

else the thing would turn into some gardening bullshit.

IMO that's the problem with that American permaculture forum. No true intellectual conversations with notes & information people have to look up and catch up on. Instead, it's like air power in 1936/1937...suppressed, changed, or altered.

& IMO, it's uncomposted smelly shit.

However, what we need isn't just people like Geoff Lawton, Heenan Doherty, and the like. We need a generation of Permaculturalists that start working on community levels, not just farm, but Industrialized nations as well. Greensburg, Kansas (http://www.greensburgks.org/) if anyone is familiar with it needed Permaculture to go along with the LEED building they did.

IMO, the Eartship being built in Australia + Permaculture would go far to what I envision as the future.

[kimbo.parker]

http://www.ted.com/talks/seth_godin_on_the_tribes_we_lead.html

[Theron]

However, what we need isn't just people like Geoff Lawton, Heenan Doherty, and the like. We need a generation of Permaculturalists that start working on community levels, not just farm, but Industrialized nations as well. Greensburg, Kansas (http://www.greensburgks.org/) if anyone is familiar with it needed Permaculture to go along with the LEED building they did.

Great point Pakanohida!

I agree with kimbo regarding the apparent corruption of the permaculture movement and, as many of the responses I've received from other forums will attest, relegation to simple "advanced organics" as being one of the greatest challenges we face. But I agree with pebble in regard to PC alone not being able to "save the world"... and further, the idea that the world needs saving. (humanity, maybe... the world, that's not up to us... whether we're pc fanatics or not.) In fact, it's this idea that I think leads to one of the greatest challenges we face in advancing permaculture (the practice, not the title).

From feedback I've gotten from other forums, I get the sense that we the "permaculture is here to save the world" puts off a lot of people... particularly, people who don't believe the world really needs saving. If you look at the latest post about the PDC in Yemen, for the people there, learning permaculture has nothing to do with saving the world. They're learning permaculture because it makes sense in both ecological AND economic ways. They're learning to improve the quality of their lives!

People, in general, are disinterested in altruistic ideals... we're far more interested in how things benefit us directly and individually and far less interested in how something (no matter what you call it or what it represents) is going to save the world.

So, part of what I think I'm seeing come out of these discussions is that permaculture would do well to tone down on the prophetic "save the world" babble and put more emphasis on what permaculture can do to help improve a persons life, in a real tangible and personal way.

Beyond that, I strongly agree with Pakanohida, that we, as permaculturalist, need to start putting more focus into community systems (at least in the first world context, where community has suffered years of the elevation of isolated individualism).

A friend of mine brought up this quote recently and I'm wondering what you guys think about it:
"Corporations are intentional communities. They are just crap intentional communities." -David Tiger

Is the ethical corporation possible? If so, what would a corporation, led by permacultural ethics, look like?

[Grahame]

I've been thinking about this today and it occurred to me that one of the big challenges to permaculture becoming more accepted is that it is becoming more accepted. There are other examples of systems being set up to 'beat the system' or to breakdown the system but often they just become a different arm of the system.

An example might be farmers markets. Farmers markets started springing up to tackle the supermarket problem. But then re-sellers got on to the idea and just started trucking fruit from elsewhere into the markets preying on unsuspecting folks. So then they come up with this idea of Farmers Market Accreditation, which sounds like a good idea, only rather than just giving the accredited folk there little tick of approval, they decide to effectively exclude non-accredited folks from the markets. So now you are in this situation where you have to accredit or be shunned. So now they begin to reflect supermarkets, even if originally with good intentions.

I think there is a similar problem with the Organic Accreditation, just the cost alone makes it an exclusive club (in my eyes at least).

So I think there is going to be a similar challenge with permaculture if we try to 'over-manage' it's implementation. I'm not sure what the answer is. Perhaps you do?