Anyone disagree with Bill Mollison on cats?

[Nickolas]

Bill Mollison states in a few of his permaculture books that there is no place in permaculture for cats(please correct me if i an wrong).

[mischief]

Oh dear, well I'm not putting my two down.

[annette]

Well apart from catching the occasional mouse, I can't see what other use they would have in a permaculture sense. On another level they can provide much needed company and fulfill the need for a pet. I like cats, but I won't have one. I get too sad when pets pass on and I have too much wildlife around here for the pussies to get their claws and teeth into. I have a very cheeky antichinus that runs around my house and I'm sure a cat would have targeted it by now.

[sun burn]

I disagree with bill too. I love my cat and he's staying put. He doesn't seem to kill much. Dogs kills things a lot too. The chickens are more nuisancing the way they dig everything up. But i don't care. You can get around anything. Maybe people who'se cats eat the wildlife aren't feeding htem enough or looking after them well enough. Do what you want to do.

[milifestyle]

Our cat used to share his food every night with a bandicoot... he even kept the birds off the vegie patch, not by attacking them only by trying to play with them and them chickening out... it was hilarious to watch...

[pebble]

Was Mollison talking about domestic cats or feral cats? Big difference.

[FREE Permaculture]

well both, feral cats come from domestic cats.
mostly 'cos people don't nacker the boys so they go off rooting anything that walks domestic, ferals, the lot, bit like my younger days.

but cats couldn't be that bad, I have a local cat that lives in my backyard during the day, he likes to watch my chooks and knows that there are mice in the garage so I like him.
I have had a couple cats but i too can't keep them anymore as it's just too distressing when they die, they don't live long enough.

[eco4560]

My cat is staying too. I was in the yard this afternoon, when he snuck back into my place through a crack in the fence with a huge rat in his mouth. Pity it was the neighbours rodent population he was sorting out, not mine! He pees and poos on my nice warm compost pile. He's great company in the garden - usually sitting a few steps away from wherever I am. I think he guards the chooks too.

And I don't need a hot water bottle because a cat under the doona is much nicer!

[CRTreeDude]

Pretty hard to grow sweet potatoes (camote in Spanish) here if you don't have something like a cat to keep the mice down who eat the tubers. And, we have seven types of wild cats here, from Marguay to Jaguar. Seems to me that they are necessary to the ecology.

Cats honestly don't do well here, they have lots of predators, coyotes are high on the list. Cats stay very close to habitations, if they want to survive, except the wild ones, of course.

Perhaps the real problem is that feral cats (from domesticated) are filling ecological gaps because the natural predators are all gone? You just need a predator to keep the cats down too.

[pebble]

"And, we have seven types of wild cats here, from Marguay to Jaguar. Seems to me that they are necessary to the ecology."

Ha, ha, good one.

I agree with the point about niches. Feral cats are a problem in some places eg in NZ native bush they kill alot of native birds, and the cats have virtually no predators apart from humans who aren't that good at it. That's quite different than someone intentionally having one or two cats as part of one's home or permie design (cats can be steralised, so don't have to contribute to the feral cat problem). In NZ, where we don't have many other useful predators I'd be interested to know how permies would manage rat and mice populations. Cats excel at this, and most people I know resort to poison when the rats and mice get out of control. Cats also make excellent companions for humans that like them.

[annette]

Rat and mice seeking dogs are pretty good. I think the Tenterfield Terrier is probably the best. Geoff Lawton has one for catching the mice and rats around the place.

[Pakanohida]

Over at Mountain Homestead (a permaculture residence across town from me) they have domestic cats that eat feral. No mice or voles anywhere in their garden which is surrounded by pacific northwest rainforest. They have no bells or collars on them as well.

My own cats catch mice, hummingbirds, other birds, and rabbits, till we started keeping them inside.

In history, cats were used to keep mice away from grain houses. Hence why they were so important in Egypt which at the time was the bread basket of the Roman empire.

When people started persecuting the felines in the Dark Ages we got the plague because things went out of balance between the fleas, rats, and cats.

So yeah, my observations make me disagree with Bill. Go fig.

Edit - If I don't have my dog, how can I search for truffles?! The dog protects me from deer, mountain lion and bear. So I don't agree about dogs either.

[Grahame]

Edit - If I don't have my dog, how can I search for truffles?!

Pigs.

[Pakanohida]

Pigs.

But it isn't multipurpose in this case! The pig won't protect me from deer, or a mountain lion.. it would be a snack or run off! The dog would fight & protect! :D Based on analysis, the dog wins! :)

[FREE Permaculture]

no, you get a gun and protect the pig, in return the pig won't eat your truffles, it's the way it's always been, pig first, you last, so to speak.. :shake:

[Pakanohida]

no, you get a gun and protect the pig, in return the pig won't eat your truffles, it's the way it's always been, pig first, you last, so to speak.. :shake:

I am one of the few Americans that do not believe in gun use, I believe in the power of the compound bow. It's just more true to my Permaculture that way.

[FREE Permaculture]

yeah i can picture you now, standing guard at the truffle trees, pig busy sniffing and you keeping the grizzlies at bay..

1295
http://forums.permaculture.org.au/images/misc/pencil.png

[Michaelangelica]

PETA do. They think strays should be caught. neutered and released.
I tried to show them that feral cats in Aust were best dead and explain the destructive/catostrophic effects they have on wildlife but they were too Yankcentric to understand

That having said i have two cats, both are excellent gardeners

[worowa]

Cats taste just like rabbits, lots of people eat them. They can be a useful component of a permaculture system.
I would rather have Quolls, but at the moment we can't legally have native "cats", but no legal problems having cats.
Foxes on the other hand are almost inedible, and have very few uses in a permaculture system.

[pebble]

What is a quoll and what part of the world do you live in?

[pebble]

"Foxes on the other hand are almost inedible, and have very few uses in a permaculture system."

But animals aren't only for eating. Surely it's about designing for the human needs in the context of any particular landscape. If foxes are useless I would wonder what you do with them if they insist on sharing your land.

[floot]

"I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals. - Winston Churchill"

Any mention of cats on a permie forum, especially in Australia, will be divisive. Personally, I can see no need for cats in any part of Australia but would concede that their wildlife killing habits may be curbed in an urban environment or an aviary environment.

In other parts of the world this may not apply, our member from Costa Rica points out that there are already cats of various sizes there so the impact of a domestic cat will probably never have the impact it has had in Australia. I also know that in Australia to mention something detrimental about cats causes emotional responses akin to saying 'your kids are ugly'. The responses are often not measured.

Mollison is right to point out there does not appear a need for cats in a permaculture situation but I would imagine he was referring to an Australasian perspective.

Cats, although not the only culprits, have been thought to have been largely responsible for the decimation and extinction of many species of small marsupial. To support this, there are many species surviving quite happily on islands around our coastline that do not have cats. There are cat-free sanctuaries where rare species do quite well. The fox is also to blame here but, of note, there is probably more than 40% of Australia where foxes do not exist and cats do.

In the Northern Territory a few years ago 23 mala [a small type of kangaroo] where released back into the wild in a cat free zone in the desert. All was fine until a cat got in and managed to kill the last mala before it was caught. This species continues to do well in captivity but is extremely rare in the wild. The mala were natural across Australia's northern deserts very few people have seen them in the wild being naturally shy and nocturnal anyway.

Two of the heaviest population densities I have seen for wild cats is Arnhemland and the Barkly Tableland in the Northern Territory and given that feral cats are shy and nocturnal, there numbers must be frightening.

I will happily endorse people owning cats if they can guarantee that they are kept at home and under supervision. Good luck with that...:)

cheers,

[pebble]

"The responses are often not measured"

On all sides of the debate ;-) I remember some pretty full on threads here on the PRI forum. People who are rapidly anti-cat are just a big a problem as people who are in denial of the problems cats can cause.

I'd like to see the original Mollison quote, and the context. I don't understand the point of having that stance where feral cats exist. Over here at least, they are like any other introduced, problematic species (stoats are more of a problem for native animals than cats). We will never get rid of feral cats, so it makes more sense to me to include them in the design than have an abstract idea like 'cats are bad'. It reminds me of the permie view on wilding pines, which tries to redress the inherent problems in condemning a whole species. By including them in the design, I mean things like hunting/harvesting them and designing to minimise their impact.

Domestic cats don't need to be at home and supervised. If they're to fulfill their function in the system they need to be able to hunt. You can teach cats what's ok to hunt (to a point and it does take some effort and good relationship with the cat). Having them neutered so they don't contribute to the feral cat problem makes sense.

[ppp]

"my cat doesn't eat. .. much" denial? Talking in the Australian context there are no predators for them. I have seen quite a few cute little pussy wussies stalk and kill native birds and their chicks.

[Matt_95]

My cat keeps me warm in winter and also hunts geckos (the feral asian ones) which keep us up at night and poo all over my mums tablecloths she sells (we've fixed that now though). She is kept indoors but during summer when we leave the doors open she will go outside to cool off in the breeze. We also let her out when we are gardening or hanging out the washing so she can get some fresh air. She is terrified of birds and they all know it too, we used to have a pee wee that would fly in the house and terrorise her. The only animals she can sucesfully hunt are geckos and teh occasional skink that gets in the house.

[pebble]

Not sure what your point is ppp. Yes cats kill birds. They also kill rats and mice, which is incredibly useful. In permie terms, it's about appropriate design. Besides, you can teach cats to not kill certain kinds of animals (up to a point), or at least I know people who have done this.

I have no problem with feral cats being hunted in native ecosystems in the same ways as stoats, ferrets, possums and any other introduced animal that is causing decline in bird numbers. Nor do I have a problem with cats not being allowed as pets alongside or in native ecosystems. But most permies don't live in a such a situation, so it makes more sense for cat permies to design around cats if they want to. I'd still like to know how rats and mice are to be controlled without cats. It might be different in OZ, but in NZ there are few other options.

[Grasshopper]

I grew up in suburban Melbourne with cats, they mainly killed blackbirds, Indian minors and sparrows,they also killed rats and mice. On rare ocasions they killed native birds I remember a few doves and a lorikeet.
I cant vouch for every kill but the routine was to display it at the front door.We had a siameese and burmese who killed a few possums.
They where locked up at night and hung around the house most of the day mainly sleeping in the sun.
Since not having a cat dad has to net his fruit trees and even his tomatoes,possums strip fruit of trees and eat the rind of the lemons,nest in his ceiling and he now sets baits and traps for the rats and mice.
He never had lizards or frogs or any other wildlife as they had been devestated by decades of suburbia.
He is too old to be bothered caring for another cat so never replaced the last one.
As for me I cant justify a cat as I have millions of lizards, frogs and little native birds,and a few snakes it would have to be a house cat 100% of the time and then he would eat my house gheckos.
and Im not prepared to eat him,milk him or make felt hats from his fur.

[Curramore1]

A quoll or tiger cat is our largest Australian native marsupial predator, are several species, usually comes in brown with white spots or black with white spots. Is a ferocious killer of domestic chickens and the like. Not many near densely populated areas. Would probably give a cat a run for it's money, but not anywhere near as fecund.

[pebble]

Thanks Curramore, are they native?

Grasshopper.... cats killing possums, that's very impressive!

[Pakanohida]

In permie terms, it's about appropriate design.

Which is why the fox has a home in some permacultural designs.

[pippimac]

Cats are a bit of a hot topic and one I usually avoid, but here goes:)
pebble, I've never heard of anyone training cats not to attack certain species.
So they'd go for rodents but not birds?
I'm not into cats, but when my parents old moggies die and if they decide to get a youngster, I'd love to avoid fantails on the doorstep!

[pebble]

I think you have to be a cat person. Some (not all) cat people get cats in a way that induces the kind of relationship where it's to the cats benefit to do or not do certain things. I know of a cat that will happily kill and eat feral rabbits but not only doesn't eat the pet rabbit in the household when it is out, but plays with it. Cats are generally very intelligent but you can't train them like dogs. You have to have cat mind. Train might not even be the right word. But people teach cats all the time: to toilet outside, to not jump on the kitchen bench. I taught my cat to fetch a toy.

There are other ways of managing cats killing native birds (I personally don't have a problem with cats killing non-natives unless that is a problem for a specific reason). I lost some waxeyes one year, because my cat learnt how to sit by the compost where they were feeding. I covered the compost and the cat stopped getting the wax eyes. Where I live now, there is a tree that the fantails love. The neighbour's cat gets a few of them. I think the solution is to remove the easy cover for the cat (tussocks) and to take the branches of the tree up (at the moment they hang very low near the ground). Haven't convinced the tree owner yet.

Observe and interact! ;-)

[Nickolas]

I have a 2 year old male cat that i trapped with a cat/fox cage trap when he was an 8 week old feral kitten. I never let him go out side.
It took a lot of work with him but he is now as friendly as a domesticated cat and kills like a feral cat(best of both worlds), apart from humans he killes anything that sets foot in the house like rats, mice, birds and he evan got a snake once.
I like my pet cat but i have killed about 20-percent+ of his feral kin in my area and i dont plan on stoping any time soon as they kill so many things in my local area, they out number humans about 5 to 1 in my area.

p.s. sadly i had to kill another lot of feral cats last night when 6 of them broke into 1 of my 2 chook pen where they killed and ate 1 rooster, 10 of my chickens and 6 of this years baby chicks, sadly i now only have 3 hens, 2 roosters and 3 chicks left that were in my other chook pen.

This was very bad as i have never seen feral cats work together befor, but at least i killed all 6 of the feral cats that got into my chook pen.

[andrew curr]

good for tennis rackets

[garnede]

I think I disagree with Mollison. While it may be true where cats are not native, OZ & NZ, here in the US they fit pretty well. We still have coyotes, bobcats, mountain lions, black bears, foxes, and alligators that are native plus wild dogs and feral hogs that will all kill and eat cats. In towns the wild life can't keep up with the feral cats, but that is not a good reason to not have a pet cat that has been fixed. I live in town and hunting is not allowed. My yard is surrounded by live oak trees, which harbor lots of grey squirrels. If not for my cats I would not get any fruit or veggies because the squirrels would eat it all. They also kill mice, rats, snakes, insects, some birds, and anole lizards. I don't feel bad for any of them, because they are benefitting from the permaculture design/deep mulch garden that make the environment much more favorable to wildlife than before I started. The cats keep the excess from becoming a problem. And most importantly they make my wife happy.

[Wolf_rt]

Yeah, i love cats, but there really not the go generally... even if they don't get the birds they do scare them off..

On the other hand, if you can train them to crap in the compost heap, then that's something...

Perhaps only fat cats with bells?

[pebble]

"I don't feel bad for any of them, because they are benefitting from the permaculture design/deep mulch garden that make the environment much more favorable to wildlife than before I started. "

That's a good point. Where I live the best way to encourage birds is to plant more trees and habitat for them.

[ppp]

Does any one know if chooks would eat a dead cat?They love protein.

[Dzionik]

Woow you want to feed chooks with cats? how inventive :-) waste nothing.

[pippimac]

In my experience, chooks will eat anything if it's boiled first...
they love possum and I imagine they'd love cat too!

[Greenmama]

Do your chickens really love possum? Really?

Our chickens are vegetarian now after I once fed them a dozen raw sausages and one stupid chicken looooved them and ate them all up. She died. I was a newbie and thought they'd ignore them and scratch them into the dirt, blood and bone for the oranges. I have learnt chickens don't regulate their food well - and they can't poop meat well, which is understandable really. In the wild a chicken would eat a few slugs, not a cow rump. At the time I was also buying them cheap nasty feed from City Farmers that contained "restricted" meat products though - ewww, they are so much better off vegetarian.

But onto cats ... I think cats have a purpose in a permaculture system. Perhaps not so much in a rural Australian setting, but in my backyard suburban setup a cat is a very effective way of minimising the rats and mice that love our chicken coop, mulch pile and worm farms. Our little female cat is desexed and is a ratter. In the warm months she brings in a ton of kill. She does get the odd honey eater or dove, but she prefers mice - they get eaten all up except for the tail and feet. When she passes away I will buy another cat - which I will desex - for the very purpose of eating rodents and snakes.

I figure no system is perfect. My cat is actually extremely valuable in my permaculture system. Despite her very effective pest control, our garden has frogs, wild birds and lizards. Certainly far more than any of the other backyards in our sterile, manicured street. Secondly, a house just isn't a home without a puss lying on the sunny back step. And, um, I can't think of a third reason to keep her (so I guess that breaks Mollisons "3 uses" rule) But she is so valuable in these two uses I think she's worth it. That's still more useful than some of my ex-boyfriends were ;P

[garnede]

I figure no system is perfect. My cat is actually extremely valuable in my permaculture system. Despite her very effective pest control, our garden has frogs, wild birds and lizards. Certainly far more than any of the other backyards in our sterile, manicured street. Secondly, a house just isn't a home without a puss lying on the sunny back step. And, um, I can't think of a third reason to keep her (so I guess that breaks Mollisons "3 uses" rule) But she is so valuable in these two uses I think she's worth it. That's still more useful than some of my ex-boyfriends were ;P

More uses for your cat:

Her poop adds fertility to your garden.
She keeps any one species from exploding in number and becoming a pest.
she provides companionship
she provides entertainment
If grass starts growing in your garden she will eat some

[floot]

Greenmama,

Your comment about ex-boyfriends had me chuckling for ages!!.

You do make a good point about location. I could see circumstance whereby a cat would be a useful addition in a design. I could probably design an elephant into my system being on 75 tropical acres something impossible in your situation.

When we had a cat on our property I could see the damage it was doing and the wildlife it was scaring off but it pales into insignificance compared to the havoc cane toads have reeked. The damn things even climb into pot plants and destroy them. We can't have a pond anymore.

Now if cats would hunt cane toads I would become a cat lover overnight!

Cheers,

[Ludi]

I like my indoor pet cats from an aesthetic perspective. I like to think "quality of life" is part of permaculture, and my pet cats add to my quality of life. They have no other function. The outdoor cats chew the heads off some mice, but I think native snakes and other predators are probably better for rodent control than cats.

5 cats: 2 outdoor, 3 indoor, all sort of imposed on me by circumstance.

A cat lover (substitute babies for this childless woman :) )