How to make a ecosocialist movement - Ian Angus

[plastic_factory]

Hey guys and fellow comrades,

Thought I would stop just browsing and sign up to show you this,

http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/48996 (I suggest watching the video)

http://climateandcapitalism.com

Personally, I'm far left myself and believe that capitalism (especially its current frameworks) cannot be sustainable and will not fix the three major crises the human collective is facing today. (resource depletion, climate change and overpopulation)

Just to get started with basic thoughts;

Overpopulation is caused through poverty, poorer people generally have more children for work, risk of some not surviving and lack of education/protection but most developed nations are now on a plateau, some even decreasing in size, wealth has to be distributed equally, everyone has to have access to health and education services and a decent standard of living, otherwise Africa, parts of India and places in the Middle East are going to continue to sky rocket in population. Of course, the more people with higher standards of living, the more people consuming higher amounts of natural resources and emitting more emissions, but that's were technology and climate change action have to come in.
I think everyone here would understand what needs to be done to tackle climate change, my comment would be that capitalism doesn't have us collaborating, it has us competing, I believe technology would advance much quicker sharing knowledge, then restricting it for personal/corporate profit, which I guess we will see once more companies start making the switch to renewable energies.

These are off the top of my head opinions as such, I'm open to discussion! It would just take me a few hours to structure a post and gather all relevant information, so it's just quite basic.

I'm sure there are other socialists among these forums, but anyone that hasn't read any Marx, or socialist/communist, I believe you should.

[eco4560]

I would argue that overpopulation is due to the remarkable improvements in infant mortality over the past 50 years.

Do you suggest we go back to letting children die from malnutrition, malaria and diarrhoea so you can have a comfortable way of life?

[Finchj]

I'm not sure overpopulation has to be as big of a problem as is let on. Given our ability to restore drylands and even deserts to productive systems, I believe the amount of arable land is actually much higher than we are led to believe. In the states, we had over 40 million acres of lawn, most of it irrigated. And that was in 2005. (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles/050516/16lawn.htm) Granted, the USA is one of the largest countries on the planet and we cannot expect to find the same amount of land being used for ornamental grass everywhere, but it just goes to show that we have a lot of re imagining to do in regards to land use (or misuse as the case may be!).

Many self described environmentalists I know seem to want to have our Western "standard of living" (read: stuff) and yet fail to make the connection to agriculture and how our industrial methods are destroying much of the planet. They have a tenuous grasp of water and carbon cycles and how we play a role in affecting change. When we talk about change, too many folks are willing to talk the talk, but say hell no to actually breaking a sweat. If any sort of ecologically based political movement beyond just green politics and into radical redesign of our systems, such as drawing borders that follow watersheds rather than arbitrary lines in the sand, is going to emerge, it is going to have to happen locally and organically many times over.

Although I am a social democrat, which puts me on the "far left" here in the States, I believe that if anything is going to change, it will do so once people begin to take personal responsibility. People must become active in their communities and come together to solve the problems they face locally. But that will take a paradigm shift in the West. No more shouting to the world how great and wonderful democracy is, no more forcing it upon other cultures with military action and then refusing to vote or engage in your community at home. Democracy only works when the people participate.

Through education and agroecology, I think we will see a much better future of mankind. By sharing the knowledge we may be able to stem the tide of urbanization in "developing" countries, thereby allowing social structures and cultures that do not value consumption a fighting chance. I think it is a common misconception (awkward wording there) that everyone wants to be like the West- in terms of consumption.

Sorry for the disjointed post, but those are some thoughts on the topic.

[Grasshopper]

I'm not sure overpopulation has to be as big of a problem as is let on. Given our ability to restore drylands and even deserts to productive systems, I believe the amount of arable land is actually much higher than we are led to believe. In the states, we had over 40 million acres of lawn, most of it irrigated. And that was in 2005. (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles/050516/16lawn.htm) Granted, the USA is one of the largest countries on the planet and we cannot expect to find the same amount of land being used for ornamental grass everywhere, but it just goes to show that we have a lot of re imagining to do in regards to land use (or misuse as the case may be!).
Through education and agroecology, I think we will see a much better future of mankind. By sharing the knowledge we may be able to stem the tide of urbanization in "developing" countries, thereby allowing social structures and cultures that do not value consumption a fighting chance. I think it is a common misconception (awkward wording there) that everyone wants to be like the West- in terms of consumption.


In Africa multinational corporations are buying enormous tracts of land in Africa to the detriment of local communities.
Agazit Abate warns that the land grab puts countries on the path to increased food insecurity, environmental degradation, increased reliance on aid and marginalisation of farming and pastoralist communities.
In 2009 alone, nearly 60 million hectares* of land were purchased or leased throughout the continent for the production and export of food, cut flowers and agrofuel crops.http://peakoil.com/alternative-energy/the-new-land-grab-in-africa-an-alarming-scramble-for-the-continent-is-on/
I've lost faith in faux democracy, corporations are richer than governments and answer to nobody.
The worlds only saviour will be a peak oil led collapse of the current ponzi scheme.

*
1 hectare = 2.47105381 acres

[plastic_factory]

I would argue that overpopulation is due to the remarkable improvements in infant mortality over the past 50 years.

Then how you do explain Japans decreasing population and parts of Europes plateau?
Birth rates in developed countries are quite low, U.S 2.05, Australia 1.79, Canada 1.53, Switzerland 1.42, Germany 1.36. Isn't this what we want? The problem would lie then with emissions and resource consumption of more developed countries.


Do you suggest we go back to letting children die from malnutrition, malaria and diarrhoea so you can have a comfortable way of life?

I'm suggesting the complete opposite of that, I suggest better wealth distribution, so health, education and basic commodities can be accessible to everyone, evidently, lowering birth rates.

As for your final comment on my comfortable life, I find it quite offensive and bizarre coming from a moderator, you're judging me without even knowing me and also missing what I originally had to say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aging_of_Japan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories _by_fertility_rate

[purecajn]

Sorry grasshopper, but it will never end unless we stop it. Seeing the oil is limited now they've moved onto other pastures, water and food. The 2 things one can NEVER live without. If they control the water and food supply they will control it all. Just you wait..... You think it's nasty now, wait till we have to live below surface due to polution and have to submit to all of their whims.

[Finchj]

Placing faith in faux democracy would be rather silly in the first place. Do you mean the structure of democracy as we know it is false? Or have you lost faith in the politicians and lobbyists who run the place?

I honestly believe the structure is still, albeit not as intact as it once was, but the basis of democracy (at least in the USA) is still set up in the Constitution. As tight a grip as the top corporations and power brokers have, they still know that the Constitution is alive and well in our people. We may be corrupted by consumption, but that hold will not last forever. It cannot, history has shown full well how all regimes come to an end. They may be replaced, reconstituted, but in the end, they all fall. Eventually.

As far as the massive land grabs are concerned, they are very serious issues. At the same time there are NGOs (both domestic to each country and international) that are working to bring legal rights to land for indigenous people who currently have no record of ownership on the books. That is to say, there are good natured people working every day to bring an end to the abuses brought upon the world. We can either join them or we can say it is all for naught. I'd rather do the former.

A shame that it has to happen this way, but I'm not as fatalistic as to believe we have to wait for an outside event such as peak oil for corrupt systems of power to be overthrown. As purecajn says, if they control things now- with all the diversity and opportunity for change- just wait until people are even more afraid. Peak oil may or may not end the trend towards oligarchy. In fact, it may do the opposite.

"If the solution has never been to look at yourself, how is it that you expect to find it anywhere else?" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcYVKrBatj8)


Sorry grasshopper, but it will never end unless we stop it. -purecajn

I second that.

[purecajn]

Lost faith in our politicians and lobbyest a long time ago. I realize that checks and balances were put into place to prevent corruption, but there are new opportunities for corruption in this day and age and new checks and balances need to be enacted. Relying on the politicians definitly isn't going to fix anything. Is it possible for a totally off grid community (Guild) to exist in the middle of a suburb area/ city area allowing it to survive legally without having to pay any taxes yet still able to make a contribution to the outside community?

1. How can one legally own a piece of land in which the government has no claim to tax?
2. Make piece(s) of land into a small self sustaining community.
3. Find if a person can legally live without paying taxes by being self sufficient.
4. Use the success of the small community to inspire others to pull offgrid using extremely lowtech techniques.
5. Reducing the average financial output from being more self sufficient will allow those still in the workforce to have more of a bargining chip as less hours work are NEEDED for necessities in a consumer based society. (Less people in the work force means higher wages also)
6. Less taxes being collected is a protest in itself too political corruption.

Is this model already being used anywhere?

[purecajn]

preferably build in (sub)-urban areas

[eco4560]

My apologies for my comments. I was angry about something else and it spilled over here in an inappropriate manner.

[Pakanohida]

, but the basis of democracy (at least in the USA) is still set up in the Constitution.

I thought the basis of our (yes Our, I am in Oregon) democracy was the Greek model of government, then the Magna Carta, and then the Deceleration of Independence. The Constitution is a framework of laws to protect & serve Americans. For example, my favorite being the Freedom of Speech which also allows us to sue for false imprisonment amongst other things.

What screwed us up, and the world by transitive extension was allowing Corporations to have the same rights as a citizen, yet when a corporation commits a tragedy they are fined, and not imprisoned, dismantled or anything else. There is no closure, the company goes on to continue with dirty business practices with impunity.

Then, we also allow groups & corporations to lobby the government thus shutting down the voice of the average citizen again.

I see the problems and issues, & I have no solutions other then Permaculture for our country. As Mr. Lawton has said countless times, all the worlds problems can be solved in a garden.

[Pakanohida]

Lost faith in our politicians and lobbyest a long time ago. I realize that checks and balances were put into place to prevent corruption, but there are new opportunities for corruption in this day and age and new checks and balances need to be enacted. Relying on the politicians definitly isn't going to fix anything. Is it possible for a totally off grid community (Guild) to exist in the middle of a suburb area/ city area allowing it to survive legally without having to pay any taxes yet still able to make a contribution to the outside community?

1. How can one legally own a piece of land in which the government has no claim to tax?
2. Make piece(s) of land into a small self sustaining community.
3. Find if a person can legally live without paying taxes by being self sufficient.
4. Use the success of the small community to inspire others to pull offgrid using extremely lowtech techniques.
5. Reducing the average financial output from being more self sufficient will allow those still in the workforce to have more of a bargining chip as less hours work are NEEDED for necessities in a consumer based society. (Less people in the work force means higher wages also)
6. Less taxes being collected is a protest in itself too political corruption.

Is this model already being used anywhere?

This is brilliant. I forgot that in American, self-sufficient means I also need to make enough for taxes.

Edit - I also realize that problems like this is what started the Revolution.

[Finchj]

Poor choice of words on my part. The Constitution sets up our federal system with the accompanying Bill of Rights (and later amendments) outline our supposedly inalienable rights. Therefore, the Constitution, in my eyes, is the basis of our democracy. I understand full well that our form of government and our ideas about democracy have a history that spans thousands of years.

Your post and my ideas about whats wrong with our government are in congruence. Corporate personhood was a terrible decision, and now our recent Citizens United is just insult to injury (to put it lightly).

The idea of an intentional community not paying taxes doesn't sit well with me. How will you help others? Will you use the roads, communication systems, and public spaces that everyone else pays for? If you are using a product or service, shouldn't you help maintain the cost?

[Pakanohida]

Alaska has no sales tax, no personal income tax, they give checks out instead, granted by destroying the environment they love & moved there for but it is one of the top 10 best states that share the wealth with the citizens and yet maintain roads, and everything else.

Just food for thought.

[Finchj]

Alaska has plenty of taxes. Taxing the oil and gas industry isn't exactly a minor part of their revenue stream either.

Alaskan Tax Division Programs (http://www.tax.alaska.gov//programs/index.aspx):



Alcoholic Beverages Tax
Commercial Passenger Vessel Excise Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Electric Cooperative Tax
Employment Security Tax
Estate Tax
Fisheries Related Taxes
Gaming
Large Passenger Vessel Gambling Tax
Mining License Tax
Motor Fuel Tax
Oil and Gas Production Tax
Oil and Gas Property Tax
Personal Income Tax
Regulatory Cost Charges
Sales and Use Tax
Telephone Cooperative Tax
Tire Fee
Tobacco Tax
Vehicle Rental Tax
Withholding Tax

Every tax system may not be the same, but the money comes from somewhere and the people do share in the burden one way or another.

[purecajn]

The ability of a nation to withhold support of its governing body gives the people of a nation power to virtually "STRIKE." Seems a more peacefull/effective way to protest than getting shot while standing in a road somewhere chanting. After all, why pay an employee who isn't doing their job? Why should I be forced to support a business which I feel doesn't look after my/humanities best interest? Should you be forced to pay someones wages when their job duties cause you and your children physical harm? Seems the best way to get someones attention these days is to tell them they have to take a cut in pay. And since they can so effortlesly vote their own raises into existance someone needs to pull the reigns back. The Unions have been using the STRIKE method to successfully negotiate with cartels for years.
Infrastructure has already been paid for by those before us. Its upkeep is just another local job paid for by those whom contribute in that fashion. I didn't say it was an answer, at least not a complete one. But it could be used to get the attention/results wanted is to break down the current Monatary structure of consumerism and adopt something more sustainable, cause all this one does is encourage the manipulation of our fellow man\woman.
As I said, being more self sufficient will allow people to work more for pleasure rather than to make ends meet. As such I feel more people will actually be in a better mentality with a lot less stress.

[Pakanohida]

Alaska has plenty of taxes. Taxing the oil and gas industry isn't exactly a minor part of their revenue stream either.

Alaskan Tax Division Programs (http://www.tax.alaska.gov//programs/index.aspx):



Every tax system may not be the same, but the money comes from somewhere and the people do share in the burden one way or another.

http://247wallst.com/2011/11/11/the-states-doing-the-most-and-least-to-spread-the-wealth/

NJ has the worst taxes, but helps its people better then most states; Alaska, same issue.


Alaska
> Average pension benefits: $18,632 (25th lowest)
> Total per pupil spending: $15,552 (3rd highest)
> Medicaid payments per beneficiary: $7,453 (6th highest)
> Pct. of weekly wages covered by unemployment benefits: 27.0% (5th lowest)
> No. of months of TANF received: 37.3 (14th highest)
> Avg. TANF cash assistance per month: $602 (the highest)

Alaskans have the lowest tax burden in the country, paying just 6.3% of their income in state and local taxes. According to the Tax Foundation, “Before the Trans-Alaska pipeline was finished in 1977, taxpayers in Alaska bore the second-highest tax burden in the country. By 1980, with oil tax revenue pouring in, Alaska repealed its personal income tax and started sending out checks instead.” The state also doesn’t levy personal income tax or sales tax. Still, it manages to spend the third largest amount per pupil each year, provide the sixth largest amount in medicaid per beneficiary, and give the largest amount in monthly TANF assistance in the country.


Taxes can be ok, IF they are used for the betterment of the people, and not abused. However, as we have seen with Rome, onwards, any political system can, and has been perverted by monies such as taxes. What is needed is human growth, and I don't mean vertical.