Should we write "Permaculture" for the Religion Question on the Australian Census?

[Callum EHO]

19 What is the person’s religion?• Answering this question is OPTIONAL.• Examples of ‘Other - please specify’ are: SALVATION ARMY, HINDUISM, JUDAISM, HUMANISM.• If no religion, mark the ‘No religion’ box.( )•

Some of us might have an actual religion or stronger belief they wish to declare but what do you think about adding "Permaculture" instead of the "no religion box" so we start to rate officially!

Is this the right term? or is it "Permaculturalism"?

[ecodharmamark]

G'day Callum

Welcome to the PRI Forum.

On the subject of filling out the 2011 Australian Census form (paper, or electronic) and in particular answering (or not answering) question 19:

When the data is collated by the Census staff, they must adhere to a strict form of codifying; that is, they have to put 'something' against your name. For example, if you leave this question blank, then the enumerator will (most likely) allocate code number 0001 "Not stated". In this sense, even by doing 'nothing', you get allocated 'something'. Further, for example, if you state that you are a Satan worshipper, then the enumerator could (most likely) allocate either 6995 "Satanism" or 6995 "Satan's Disciple". On and on it goes, until everyone has been allocated at least 'something'. If, however, you state (write) that you are a 'permaculturist' or a follower of 'permaculturism', or that you bow down and pray to the god of 'permaculture', because there is nothing within the extensive coding list that even resembles the term 'permaculture' (and any of its derivatives), then you will (once again, most likely) be allocated a code according to this rule: "Responses which cannot be identified as relating to a separately identified Religious Group in the classification are assigned a residual category code, or a supplementary code...". Whatever they case may be, if 'permaculturists' wish to be individually counted on the Census as members of/in some sort of religious affiliation in order to "rate officially", then they would have to lobby the ABS for inclusion on the 'list'. Who knows, maybe if enough people were to do the above, 'permaculture' may indeed be recognised as a 'religion'. However, the question I would then ask is, what purpose would this serve?

It's all described (in great detail) here (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/2f762f95845417aeca25706c00834efa/ec58f62320e114f9ca25697e00184ac6!OpenDocument).

Have a happy 2011 Australian Census everyone, Markos.

[eco4560]

Once again Markos your supreme knowledge is inspirational! Does Jedi Knight rate as a cannot be identified code or does it have a code?

[Callum EHO]

I guess if the questions is being used to measure "the extent of ignorance of reality" in the community then Jedi is going go show up as a burst sense of humour which is healthy but to nominate "permaculture" might might suggest you support a sustainable existance, are doing your best to be self reliant and proactive in your community in sustainable ways.

You are right about questioning whether or not there are any advantages or disadvantages to permaculture in listing permaculture as a religion. There might be tax breaks at the higher levels for an organisation and common land for worship like a community garden but other than that I am not sure. Is there any benefit in being counted? Is there any benefit in being listed? I guess this is partly why I opened up this thread. Are some people turning to religion because the other social systems are falling apart?

[Callum EHO]

I guess the other aspect is whether or not governments care about people who want to sustainably use their land in comparison to others who want to use it for other purposes?
Should permaculturalists be pushing for a different Council rate or tax rebate? Should they be going for carbon credits because of the reduced carbon miles and landfill contributions or sewer sludge ! Might it get to the point that permaculture might work out a way to get a whole heap of rebates and as more people take it up the polluters start having to face the real costs. The places left for permaculturalists to set up land systems away from incompatible land uses - are they getting greater or fewer? Should they be pushing for their own clean part of a catchment somewhere?

[ecodharmamark]

Once again Markos your supreme knowledge is inspirational! Does Jedi Knight rate as a cannot be identified code or does it have a code?

G'day Eco

Don't know about the 'supreme knowledge' stuff, it's just that I have been studying the Census data collection/collating/codifying system a lot of late in relation to the my thesis, but glad my reading of it has proven to be inspirational for you. As for 'Jedi Knight', I seem to remember in previous Census' this particular 'religion' picked up about 20,000 'hits' (at least according to populist media reports). A quick search of the 'J' list (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/F3EB60ACE33138A2CA25697E00184C87?opendocument) however reveals nothing in the codes that even resembles 'Jedi', so I guess it too would be lumped in with the 'residual or supplementary' codes. It's a bit of a laugh though, just to see what is on the list. Check it out.

Cheerio, Markos

[ecodharmamark]

G'day again, Callum


I guess if the questions is being used to measure "the extent of ignorance of reality" in the community then Jedi is going go show up as a burst sense of humour which is healthy but to nominate "permaculture" might might suggest you support a sustainable existance, are doing your best to be self reliant and proactive in your community in sustainable ways.

You are right about questioning whether or not there are any advantages or disadvantages to permaculture in listing permaculture as a religion. There might be tax breaks at the higher levels for an organisation and common land for worship like a community garden but other than that I am not sure. Is there any benefit in being counted? Is there any benefit in being listed? I guess this is partly why I opened up this thread. Are some people turning to religion because the other social systems are falling apart?

In response to the first set of questions: Personally, I don't see any benefits whatsoever.

As for the last question: On practically every scale, people who have access to higher, secular (especially tertiary) education tend to report lower rates of affiliation to religion of any kind. So in some senses, and on some particular levels, I guess you could say "...some people turn to religion because other social [i.e. eduction] systems are falling apart", or perhaps (and this is especially true in some developing regions) they were never there to begin with.

Cheerio, Markos

[ecodharmamark]

G'day Callum


I guess the other aspect is whether or not governments care about people who want to sustainably use their land in comparison to others who want to use it for other purposes?
Should permaculturalists be pushing for a different Council rate or tax rebate? Should they be going for carbon credits because of the reduced carbon miles and landfill contributions or sewer sludge ! Might it get to the point that permaculture might work out a way to get a whole heap of rebates and as more people take it up the polluters start having to face the real costs. The places left for permaculturalists to set up land systems away from incompatible land uses - are they getting greater or fewer? Should they be pushing for their own clean part of a catchment somewhere?

All very worthy questions, but probably best not to address them via this thread, least we confuse them within the context (religion) of which they are being asked. May I suggest you open another thread, perhaps one titled "Government recognition of permaculture" or some such thing?

Cheerio, Markos

[ecodharmamark]

G'day again, Eco


Once again Markos your supreme knowledge is inspirational! Does Jedi Knight rate as a cannot be identified code or does it have a code?

Sorry, missed the '20-min deadline' for edits, otherwise I would have added this in to my earlier response.

There is some very interesting discourse occurring here (https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=188360374520180), and here (http://www.censusnoreligion.org/) on the very topic of marking 'Jedi' as your religion on your Census return form.

Cheers again, Markos

[eco4560]

Interesting indeed. I presume that it must have been coded for in the past or the statistics re how many people identified themselves as Jedi at the last election would not be able to be pulled from the data.
Personally the idea that permaculture is a religion doesn't sit easily with me. I don't believe that the ethics and principles are at odds with those of any of the major faiths. Making it out to be a religion only risks alienating those who hold a faith already.

[ecodharmamark]

G'day Eco


Interesting indeed. I presume that it must have been coded for in the past or the statistics re how many people identified themselves as Jedi at the last election would not be able to be pulled from the data.
Personally the idea that permaculture is a religion doesn't sit easily with me. I don't believe that the ethics and principles are at odds with those of any of the major faiths. Making it out to be a religion only risks alienating those who hold a faith already.

I decided to do some research on the topic of 'Jedi in the Census', and this is what I found:

Many populist media outlets continue to pump out stories such as this:

The Age (2011) Census won't count Jedis or pastaferians (http://www.theage.com.au/national/census-wont-count-jedis-or-pastaferians-20110727-1i0m9.html)

The official position of the ABS in relation to this very topic:

The Australian Standard Classification Of Religious Groups lists all religions which the ABS has identified and is used for coding census responses. The criteria used for recognising something as a religion are discussed in that publication and go beyond the number of responses a particular answer receives in the census.

The classification is is periodically updated when new information comes to light. Answers such as Jedi and others which have not to this point in time [2001] been identified as a religion in the classification will be coded to the one category 'not defined', which is the label to be used in standard census output reports.

Source: ABS (2001) The 2001 Census, Religion and the Jedi (http://www.abs.gov.au/Websitedbs/D3110124.NSF/24e5997b9bf2ef35ca2567fb00299c59/86429d11c45d4e73ca256a400006af80!OpenDocument)

Interestingly, for me at least, and as far as my own non-religion is concerned, being an Anarchist (http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/ABS@.NSF/a9ca4374ed453c6bca2570dd007ce0a4/9B80BA8CC9FA6A25CA25697E00184AF6) is recognised by the ABS as a bonafide 'no religion' classification.

Like I said, have fun with it. But remember, if we do not have some way of accurately learning what people's needs are (for example, via the Census) than we will find it difficult to plan for new ways to meet those needs.

Markos

[purecajn]

Wouldn't one first have to file an application or to petition the local governing body to recognize permaculture as a religion? And if so whom in government would you contact in order to access said application (or in the alternative), whom would one specifically petition for said right?

[ecodharmamark]

G'day purecajn


Wouldn't one first have to file an application or to petition the local governing body to recognize permaculture as a religion? And if so whom in government would you contact in order to access said application (or in the alternative), whom would one specifically petition for said right?

In the context of the original thread question, "Should we write "Permaculture" for the Religion Question on the Australian Census?", and in response to your own first question, the simple answer is, no. In Australia, one can 'write' whatever they like in response to Question 19 of the Census. However, if one wishes to have one's 'affiliation' counted (or 'enumerated', and then added to a legitimate body of data, to be later reused in secondary data analysis research by people such as myself, social scientists), then one must write down one of the 'as yet' recognised 'religions' or 'no religions', or risk having their response to this question put into a category called 'not defined' (where all the 108,000-plus 'Jedis', 'Flying Spaghetti Monsters', etc. were 'dumped' last (2006) Census).

In response to the general question about permaculture becoming recognized as a religion, there are other legislative and judicial processes whereby this can by attempted (see, for example: ABS (1996) Australian Standard Classification of Religious Groups - Chapter 1: Definition of Religion (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/775012EF0058A77DCA25697E00184BDC?opendocument)).

Finally, I would like to once again put this question forward: What purpose/s would it serve to have permaculture recognised as a religion?

Cheerio, Markos

[Callum EHO]

From memory it was treasury or the tax office I think. From memory scientology went for it a few years ago - not sure if they got it based on their science fiction.
Surely permaculture would better qualify being bedded in reality. Religions in general have a pretty bad name but people are drawn to them when things get tough and I am not sure how beneficial this is to the rest of us when linked to politics, law and war.

Maybe permaculture could branch out and get into environmentally funerals as a start !! Might be good all round and a good educational opportunity all in one.
If land was involved then being a religion is an advantage funding wise!

[ecodharmamark]

G'day again, Callum


From memory it was treasury or the tax office I think. From memory scientology went for it a few years ago - not sure if they got it based on their science fiction.
Surely permaculture would better qualify being bedded in reality. Religions in general have a pretty bad name but people are drawn to them when things get tough and I am not sure how beneficial this is to the rest of us when linked to politics, law and war.

Maybe permaculture could branch out and get into environmentally funerals as a start !! Might be good all round and a good educational opportunity all in one.
If land was involved then being a religion is an advantage funding wise!

I guess that we are discussing some very different sub-contexts here. In the Context of general (Australian) Law, religion has a clearly defined set of parameters (see the link in the previous thread), In the context of the Census (ditto: Australian Law). If however we are discussing religion, and be extension permaculture, and purely in the context of it posing "an advantage funding wise", then we are still discussing Australian Law (albeit one that is bound up in the form of income tax regulations). Take for example the following hypothetical:

ABC Permaculture Group wishes to purchase some land and operate as a religious institution because they believe that if they qualify as a religion they can negate having to pay income tax on any profits said to be earned from working the land. Can they do it?

Let's see what the ATO (Australian Tax Office) has to say on the matter (http://www.ato.gov.au/nonprofit/content.aspx?doc=/content/34269.htm&page=10):

Religious institution

Your organisation will be a religious institution if it is an establishment, organisation or association that is instituted to advance or promote religious purposes.

An institution may have the legal structure of an unincorporated association or a corporation. However, incorporation is not enough, on its own, for an organisation to be an institution. Its activities, size, permanence and recognition will be relevant.

An organisation that is established controlled and operated by family members and friends would not normally be an institution.

An institution will be a religious institution if:

* its objects and activities reflect its character as a body instituted for the promotion of some religious object, and
* the beliefs and practices of the members constitute a religion.

The term 'religion' is not confined to major religions such as Christianity, Islam, Judaism, but also extends to Buddhism, Taoism, Jehovah's Witness, the Free Daist Communion of Australia and Scientology. The categories of religion are not closed. Nonetheless, to be a religion there must be:

* belief in a supernatural being, thing or principle, and
* acceptance of canons of conduct that give effect to that belief, but that do not offend against the ordinary laws.

Four other conditions

There are further conditions a religious institution must meet to be exempt from income tax. The religious institution:

* must meet one of the three tests, or
* must be listed by name in the income tax regulations for these purposes, and have a physical presence in Australia but pursue its objectives and incur its expenditure principally outside Australia.

The three tests are:

* physical presence in Australia test
* deductible gift recipient test, or
* prescribed by law test.

Does your organisation exist, operate and incur its expenditure solely and entirely in Australia?

YES

Your organisation meets the physical presence in Australia test. You do not need to read any further about the three tests.

NO

See the explanation of the three tests (http://www.ato.gov.au/nonprofit/content.aspx?menuid=0&doc=/content/34269.htm&page=14#P713_53453).

Checklist

Your organisation will be exempt from income tax if it meets all of the following requirements:

* it is a religious institution
* it is not a charity, and
* it meets at least one of four other conditions.

So, how did we go? In my estimation, ABC Permaculture may very well meet the above criterion and legally define itself as a religion, and good luck to them if they do! However, I would argue that ABC Permaculture as an entity does represent permaculture as a collective, and therefore (thankfully) is not representative of me! In this sense, permaculture (the collective term) can not, should not, will not, ever be considered (in the legal sense of the word) a religion.

Cheerio, Markos

[eco4560]

Isn't Anarchy a religion, rather than not a religion? It has a belief system, and there are organisations and publications and so on? If I were a serious Anarchist I'd want to be classified as such rather than being lumped in with a bunch of people who just couldn't be fagged with making up their minds about what they believe in.

And if there are enough Anarchists on the Census then maybe you could argue that Anarchy should be taught in Religious Ed.... or be able to have a tax deductible fund raising arm.

(PS personally I consider myself a confused Protestant with Buddhist and Pagan tendencies.... I don't think they'll have a classification for that either)

[ecodharmamark]

G'day Eco


Isn't Anarchy a religion, rather than not a religion? It has a belief system, and there are organisations and publications and so on? If I were a serious Anarchist I'd want to be classified as such rather than being lumped in with a bunch of people who just couldn't be fagged with making up their minds about what they believe in.

And if there are enough Anarchists on the Census then maybe you could argue that Anarchy should be taught in Religious Ed.... or be able to have a tax deductible fund raising arm.

(PS personally I consider myself a confused Protestant with Buddhist and Pagan tendencies.... I don't think they'll have a classification for that either)

No, anarchy is not a religion, at least not in a legal sense (see post #15). Anarchy is a way of life, a philosophy, a political ideology. The term is derived from the Greek roots ἀναρχία meaning 'of state', and ἄναρχ-ος meaning 'without a chief or head'. In this sense, anarchy is a bit like permaculture. Who is the 'boss' of permaculture? David, Bill, Geoff, You, I? Of course the answer is, none of us. Permaculture (just like anarchy) is greater than the sum of its respective parts.

According to the Australian Standard Classification of Religious Groups (ASCRG), 'Anarchist' is defined as 'No religion'. It fits within a rather narrow category known as the 7000s (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/9B80BA8CC9FA6A25CA25697E00184AF6?opendocument), or more specifically, the 7010s. Check it (us) out. I'm in there with a heaps of other interesting 'No Religion' people (all in strict, ABS-efficient alphabetical order, of course): 'Anti Religion, Apostate, Calathumpian, Don't follow any, Heathen, Iconoclast, Indifferent, Infidel, Na, Nihilist, Nil, No, No Religion, Non believer, None, None in particular, Secularist, Unbeliever, Without Religion and last, but by no means least, Zilch'. As such, when I sit down to partake in our household's eCensus party on August 9 (or thereabouts), in my response to Question 19 ('What is your religion?') I will write 'Anarchist' in the box marked 'other'. Then, when the time comes for the ABS numerator (data coalator) to assign to my response a specific code, she/he will have no other choice but to mark it (me) down in the annals of history as 'Anarchist'. Which, incidently, and when nested back through the coding system that the ABS employs, will see me lumped in with all the other 'No Religions'. But, no matter. When the ABS do finally release (probably around late-2012, early 2013) their fine-grained 'Religious Affiliatiion (Full Classification List)', there I (maybe some others, too?) will be. Right there between 'Albanian Orthodox' (of which there were a total of 75 in the 2006 Census), and 'Ancestor Veneration' (503 in the 2006 Census). Fun hey?

As for anarchy being taught in RE, or gaining tax free status, not as far as my anarchy is concerned. The day anarchy stops being a 'No Religion' and starts being a 'Religion', is they day I stop being an anarchist. Still, maybe if that does happen, I could start calling myself a Zilch...

As for your fine self, a 'confused Protestant with Buddhist and Pagan tendencies'. Hmmm... a good mix, I should think. Not sure if our anal-ret friends at the ABS will be able to codify you, however, which is a shame. I believe everyone should get a guernsey.

Have fun, folks. But please do remember, the Census is not a joke. If you do have a religion, any religion, by all means declare it. By the same token if you do not, please declare that too. If the 'undefined box' gets too big, we planners will not know where all the cool people hang out in Australia :D.

Cheerio, Markos

[purecajn]

It would be nice knowing that through a Permi Religion more and more large scale pieces of land would be protected by the governments own power from itself. Establish a couple of pieces of land around a Monsanto farm and then the Gov. may be forced to side with the Permi religion by forcing the Mono people to shut down. their actions would violate holy ground by contaminating same.

[Callum EHO]

Good Work Markos,

I guess the other question is whether the census should recognise when humans have moved onto something better than religion but not backwards down to anarchie of nothing at all ! Why is religion the big thing of interest?

Why is it in Australia that none of the religions can organise and environmentally friendly funeral? Why is it we are the only species that even when we die we end up having further detrimental environmental impact !

[ecodharmamark]

G'day Callum


...the other question is whether the census should recognise when humans have moved onto something better than religion but not backwards down to anarchie of nothing at all ! Why is religion the big thing of interest?

Technically speaking, the Census does recognise shifts in religious (or non-religious) affiliation. The following graph clearly shows this to be the case:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/28/AustralianReligiousAffiliation.svg

Source: Wikipedia (2011) Religion in Australia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Australia)

As to whether the above shows a shift to "something better than religion" or indeed, "backwards down to anarchie (sic)", I'll let you be the judge. For it is a purely subjective topic up for debate. For many people, there is nothing "better" than their particular brand of religion. Likewise for some people (myself included), any movement toward anarchy is a step forward to a "better" global community, rather than a step "backward".

I assume what you are now asking is why the Census does not record shifts in affiliation away from religion to perhaps other, philosophical and/or ideological positions (other than that of 'no religion')? My answer to this question is, I don't know. Perhaps it is a question you could put to the ABS.

What do you think such a question would look like, anyway?

Further reading:

ABS (2011) Australian Standard Classification of Religious Groups (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/productsbytitle/08D67CE7C3A715C5CA2570D700130F04?OpenDocument)

Cheerio, Markos

[adrians]

common people it isn't a religon and it never should be.

WHat would Bill Mollison say, to you all?

[Grahame]

I just filled out the questions on my census form online. It is an amazingly simple survey. Difficult to imagine that they could glean any useful information from it.

It seems to me like it would be left wide open for any kind of interpretation the prevailing paradigm could choose.

I just feel abused.

[ecodharmamark]

G'day Grahame


I just filled out the questions on my census form online. It is an amazingly simple survey. Difficult to imagine that they could glean any useful information from it.

It seems to me like it would be left wide open for any kind of interpretation the prevailing paradigm could choose.

I just feel abused.

I can appreciate why you might feel this way, and I empathise with you or anyone else who may "feel abused" after having completed the process. However, please know that by participating in the Census, you have provided valuable input into one of the most respected knowledge banks in the world. The ABS (http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/censushome.nsf/home/2011%20Census%20-%20Census%20Help%20-%20About%20the%20Census) states the Census is important because:

...[it] provides vital planning information for both the government and private sectors, and for a wide variety of community groups. Grants to state and local government are based on information from the Census.

This information helps to shape your community and its future needs such as schools, hospitals and roads; and services for young people and the elderly.

This is all very well, however from a permaculture perspective, it can (and does) do so much more. Let's say a group of people get together with the intention of forming a community (a Mandala Town scenario springs to mind). The first question they might ask themselves is "Where should we build our community"? Data recovered from the Census can help answer this question. Other questions that might arise early in the intentional community building process are "How will we attract more people to our community" and "Where will we find these people"? Again, the Census data is useful. On and on it goes.

As a professional planner specialising in the field of socio-ecological research (and by extension, the planning and development of intentional community), I use the baseline data provided by the Census nearly every day. It provides me with an accurate social snapshot of any particular community, at any given scale, and in any given point of time over the previous 100-years. This information is vital when making decisions about where a new (in my case, intentional) community has the best chance of survival, indeed where it has the best social setting in order to thrive.

I agree that the data derived from various individual Census questions when used in isolation of the other questions can seem to be of little value, other than for unscrupulous 'journalists' who will use it for compiling league tables to put on the front pages of tabloid newspapers, "Australia's poorest suburbs" is an apt example. But when used in conjunction with data derived from other Census questions, indeed other data sets (such as, community well being (http://www.communityindicators.net.au/) indicator surveys), a rich tapestry of social 'norms' (in any given situation, at any given scale) can be assembled. This matrix can then be used as a very powerful and useful tool for levering the best possible outcome for any given group or community one may be working with at the time.

The Census allows us to look back over our shoulder, to see where in the past we got it 'wrong', in terms of our population and housing mix. It gives us another piece of the jigsaw, that when fully complete, will allow us to alter our course as we head into the uncharted waters of the future, and with a renewed hope for getting it 'right'.

Cheerio, Markos

[Grahame]

I admire your optimism Markos! - I knew you would be the one to respond.

I'm a bit more cynical than you obviously...

I think you have illustrated my point well though. In the hands of someone like you the data could be turned into interesting support for doing something good and right. However, in the hands of someone, say, who was interested in getting their political party re-elected, it could be used for something entirely not good and wrong. My cynicism tells me that there are not a lot of people like you out there, and plenty of the later type.

Like all data it can be interpreted in order to fit within a paradigm. I fail to see how any of the questions I answered could give any indication to anyone the way in which I think my country should be resourced. I hallucinate intact that my answers put me onto the pile of folks that are generally disregarded.

This 'society' we live in is becoming less and less relevant to me and I really don't see how this census is going to make it one iota more relevant. But, I'm happy to stand corrected when I see the roads around here get ripped up and a train line make its way back to the town (although I saw no questions about that). I answered that we own a car, but that does't mean that I won't to own a car, it just means that the system dictates that I need too. I put down that my little girl goes to kinder, but it didn't ask me how far we travel so that she can go to a non-local Steiner kinder because the rubbish they try to palm off as a place for children to learn around here is manned by rubbish teachers who apparently have no idea about children. They asked me if I have tertiary qualifications, but they didn't ask me if that is relevant to my life. They asked me a while lot of questions that I had imperial answers too. But the answers really did nothing to represent how I would like to live. The was no quality to the questions.

Seriously mate, I reckon the whole thing is bollocks. Give Wayne Swan a bunch of numbers and ask him what they mean, and I can tell you the same numbers will mean a completely different thing to me.

If someone comes up with anything relating to Mandala Town from that census, I'll be the first to run through the streets singing the praises of the Census. Until then I remain to be convinced it is anything more than big brother collecting munitions.

</vent>

[ecodharmamark]

G'day Grahame, my Friend

Granted, the Census is purely interested in quantitative, rather than qualitative data-gathering. However, this does not mean that data recovered (and subsequently interpreted) from its base is unable to be put to 'good' (or for that matter, 'bad') use. However, here's an example of the 'good', and one that fits with the above-mentioned topic of intentional (permaculture) community building.

Let's say, for example, I am consulting with a group of people who wish to develop a new IC in an existing community/locality. My consultative group have some pretty firm ideas about the socio-demographic characteristics they would like their future host community to possess. In a nutshell, they want to find a community that has a very diverse range of ages, gender, marital status', family blends, ethnic/cultural heritages, religious beliefs, educational backgrounds, skills and qualifications, income levels, experiences living in multiple dwellings, etc., etc., etc. As such, a detailed study of Census data can help me collate a short-list of potential communities/localities that might fit their brief. Of course, a ground-truthing, qualitative data-gathering exercise would need to follow in order to ensure that these potential communities really do possess the characteristics that my group are seeking.

In sum, my mentor recently quoted an 'old saying' in a recent submission he made to a local land use planning matter, and it goes something like this:

Data is not information
Information is not knowledge
Knowledge is not wisdom

Cheerio, Markos

[barefootrim]

permaculture as a religion on the census form,,,, ummm ? ,,, I'm sticking with "Night of the Jedi" sort of has more force to it really

[Callum EHO]

I admire your optimism Markos! - I knew you would be the one to respond.

I'm a bit more cynical than you obviously...

</vent>

I tend to agree and wonder whether measurement of "religion" is as useful as other levels of social and environmental awareness that are less "sheepish".