What do you Aussies think about white tails?

[pebble]

And thanks for the gift btw ;-)

I've had a few white tail spiders in the house in the past few months, which is strange as I'd never seen one before that, ever.

Pretty much everyone I've talked to locally says to kill them, but from what I've read from medical and agricultural experts, they're not that big a deal - the bite hurts, but is rarely anything other than that. I've been taking the spiders to the country and letting them go.

I'm wondering if kiwis are overreacting because this is the only scarey animal we have (we do have a reclusive katipo spider, which also bites and is more serious I think and which I've also never seen).

What do Aussies thing about white tails?

[milifestyle]

I don't like them... and they don't like me :o)

[pippimac]

pebble, I'm from here, and I just wanted to say I've got no qualms whatsoever about squishing them.
I'd never dream of killing a spider generally, but the idea of not being able to rummage around in the woodpile really annoys me.
I just had a bit of a poke around online to see if there's anything about whitetails displacing any native species. Couldn't see anything, but that's something to consider...

[pebble]

I didn't realise you got them in Welly. Do you have many? Why can't you rummage around in the woodpile? Is being bit by a whitetail any worse than a wasp or bee sting?

[Michaelangelica]

Management

White-tailed Spiders around your house can be controlled by catching and removing any that you see and by clearing away the webs of the house spiders upon which they feed.

Danger to humans and first aid

White-tailed Spider bites can cause initial burning pain followed by swelling and itchiness at the bitten area. Occasionally, weals, blistering or local ulceration have been reported - conditions known medically as necrotising arachnidism. As well as the spider's venom, minor bacterial infection of the wound may be a contributory factor in such cases.

A debate continues about the involvement of White-tailed Spider bite in cases of severe ulcerative skin lesions seen in patients diagnosed as probable spider bite victims. Typically, in such cases no direct evidence of spider bite is available. Sensational media reporting of supposed cases of severe "necrotising arachnidism" has given the White-tailed Spider a bad reputation. However, a recent study has monitored the medical outcomes of over 100 verified White-tailed Spider bites and found not a single case of ulceration (confirming the results of an earlier study). The available evidence suggests that skin ulceration is not a common outcome of White-tailed Spider bite.

Classificationhttp://australianmuseum.net.au/White-tailed-Spider
http://www.landcareresearch.co.nz/research/biosystematics/invertebrates/spiders/white_tail.asp
I have never seen one.
Don't they like hot weather?
Maybe Global Warming has them emigrating to NZ

[eco4560]

It's the redback ones that you need to worry about. Do you want us to send some of those as well?

[pebble]

I thought they liked hot and dry, which is why I was surprised they live in Wellington. But they've probably adapted. I like them, they're quite cool to look at, bigger than a normal hunting spider (well, normal for NZ).

[pebble]

Nah, eco, we got our own redback - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katipo Beautiful, eh?

[eco4560]

She's rather attractive. Pity she's endangered.

[macey]

white tails are no problem ......really easy to catch in a glass and transfer outside.
A friend of mine got bittern by a white tail and the bite was pretty inflamed for a while but no long term ulcerative issues.
I'm fairly arachnophobic but can't kill them just because I don't like them!

[pippimac]

Thery're here in Welly, lots of em.
They hide out under things and in things, whereas unless I'm being blind I can see bumbles, and wasps stay out of the way. No bees round here.
To be honest, I've seen (and squished) plenty of whitetails and never been bit. I think the controversial 'necrotising' thing has turned me against them.
I'll do some more research; if whitetails are eating the local spiders, that's a good enough reason to kill them.

[permup]

pebble, I'm from here, and I just wanted to say I've got no qualms whatsoever about squishing them.
I'd never dream of killing a spider generally, but the idea of not being able to rummage around in the woodpile really annoys me.
I just had a bit of a poke around online to see if there's anything about whitetails displacing any native species. Couldn't see anything, but that's something to consider...

Pippimac, I love your style. I find it fascinating that living in NZ with so few spiders, you can consider rummaging in a wood pile without gloves on. I would NEVER rummage in a wood pile without my gloves on. I would never garden without my gloves on. Too many wolf spiders in the garden, huntsman in the woodpile and funnel webs just about anywhere.

My neighbour has a friend who swears he was bitten by a white tail spider. His arm ulcerated and it took him over a year to get rid of it. I hear lots of stories like this about white tail, and while I'm happy to believe they are probably urban legend, I'm not about finding out for myself. I wouldn't kill one, but I would always take precautions with gloves.

[pebble]

Pip, I'd love to hear what you find out about the local spiders and white tails.

Paula, one of the reports I read (can't remember if it was medical or MAF) said of the 100 bites that were confirmed as being by a white tail, no-one had any serious infection. For what that's worth.

[adrians]

I'm always suprised how scared people are of spiders and snakes.
I live on 5 acres, almost never wear shoes around the place even in long grass, and couldn't be bothered using gloves moving wood piles etc.. They are more scared of us than you of them. I find the people who are scared of these things are from europe or nz or somthing. edit: or northern sydney :-)

[pebble]

I find this quite interesting. I notice people who react (overreact IMO) to bees and wasps - they start flailing around in an attempt to drive the wasp away. But how many people have ever been stung by a wasp or bee when they've been sitting quietly?

I'm not sure it's entirely the same with spiders because I suspect we have some genetic something that makes us wary of them.

[Grasshopper]

You need some ghekkos to sort out your spiders in the house.

PS
My brother got bitten by a redback in Perth it was sore for a while, then fine no treatment.

[pebble]

You mean like this? http://www.nhc.net.nz/index/lizards-new-zealand/jewelled-gecko/jewelled-gecko.htm :-D

[pippimac]

I rang MAF and proved myself to be a total weirdo: "you don't care about them biting you, you're worried about them biting other spiders?"
As far as they were concerned, because whitetails prefer houses, piles of bricks and stacks of wood, they're mainly eating common house/garden spiders rather than anything rare and endangered. But spiders are what they eat and they eat lots.
The "one bit me and my arm rotted and fell off" thing is apparently untrue, except in incredibly rare cases.
I'll continue squishing them. I could say it's because they're munching other spiders, but really I don't like the way they show up in the empty bath, all long, pointy and foreign-looking.

[pebble]

I rang MAF and proved myself to be a total weirdo: "you don't care about them biting you, you're worried about them biting other spiders?"

Lol, good for you!

What are the white tails doing at home (in Oz)? They must fit in a niche there. What eats them (there and here)?

[Speedy]

As far as I'm aware no Aust species of Lampoma (White tailed spiders) are venomous....I heard that from an Arachnologist.

My brother has been bitten a few times by them at different times, ususally they've been in
clothing that he's picked up off the floor (yeah he really does that :clap:)
or when he's put his shirt on and been bitten.
nothing much happened as a result.

I was bitten last week by some weird looking spider with sort of long 'grabby' fangs.
dunno what sort it was but I treated it by going straight into the house and had another couple of beers and made a full recovery.:P

I got bitten by a redback once and that didnt do much either.
I've got hundreds of them here and I'm waiting for the willie wagtails to turn up and give them what for.
Willie wagtails love to eat spiders.... and then make their nests out of the webs.

[sun burn]

I did a first aid course a couple of years ago. I vaguely recall there was something about white tails. Now i am not certain and can probably check it sometime or you could online, but i think to treat a bite, it is different from other spider bites. You don't put a splint on, you use ice. Now don't go out and use that treatment without checking please...The correct answer is in my first aid book which is about 100m away from where i am now and its late at night so i don't feel like going out to get it.

the thing about necrotising rings a bell with me. The thing is, i had never heard of white tail spiders before i did this first aid course so I think it all goes together and i haven't mixed it up with another spider. but then, i did a quick search and seems its no longer believed to be the case. see this link which is a good health site.

http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/White_tailed_spider?open

[pebble]

As far as I'm aware no Aust species of Lampoma (White tailed spiders) are venomous....I heard that from an Arachnologist.

Yes, it's not venom, it's something else.


Alcohol... open up that blood flow and spread the poison around ;-)

[Pink Angel]

I was biten by a white tail some years ago.
It became infected and necrosis set in. I now have a scar and a depression in my leg where the spider bit. It took quite a few months to heal.
The doctor did mention that he believed the white tails in Melbourne have a more venomous bite.....

[pippimac]

I was wondering if someone would chime in who's actually reacted to a spider bite: I was starting to think it was just an anti-whitetail urban legend.
I will now squish more exuberantly than ever: eating zillions of other spiders was pushing it, but a creating a hideous ulcerated (...) gives me all the excuse I need.

[Speedy]

The spiders being non-venemous doesn't mean that some of them dont have nasty microbes on their bitey bits.
The nercrosis thing has always sounded to me like a bacterial infection
...especially when some people have no reaction to the WTS bites and then
others reporting being bitten by them and having no end of trouble with spreading necrotic lesions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necrotizing_fasciitis

here's the study on white tailed spider bites 1999-2002
http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/179_04_180803/isb10785_fm.html

That study notwithstanging, they're still a creepy looking spider especially the way they move.

[pebble]

Conclusions: Bites by Lampona spp. cause minor effects in most cases, or a persistent painful red lesion in almost half the cases. White-tail spider bites are very unlikely to cause necrotic ulcers, and other diagnoses must be sought.

That's what the NZ authorities are saying too. Given that there is a very small but serious risk of serious bacterial infection, it would pay to treat any suspected spider bite as potentially infected. I'd be cleaning it and taking a strong immune and blood cleaning herb like echinacea.

[pebble]

Also from that report:


Before 1980, there were scattered reports of definite white-tail spider bites causing minimal effects.4,5 However, over the past 20 years, necrotic lesions and ulcers have been attributed to white-tail spider bites.6-11 In a few cases, houses were searched for spiders and it was suggested that either white-tail spiders or, in some early cases, wolf spiders (Lycosidae) were responsible for the ulcers.1,6 Several reports of necrotic lesions attributed to white-tail spider bites have been published since then,3,7-10 despite lack of evidence of an identified white-tail spider biting the patient. These reports led to increased fear in the 1990s and general acceptance that white-tail spider bite causes necrotic ulcers.

Here we report a prospective cohort study of definite white-tail spider bites with expert identification of the spiders. The white-tail spiders in this study belong to two species, Lampona cylindrata and L. murina, both commonly encountered species in southern and eastern Australia (Box 1).12 Our hypothesis is that white-tail spider bites do not cause necrotic ulcers or lesions.

[macey]

thorn
The spiders being non-venemous doesn't mean that some of them dont have nasty microbes on their bitey bits.
The nercrosis thing has always sounded to me like a bacterial infection
...especially when some people have no reaction to the WTS bites and then
others reporting being bitten by them and having no end of trouble with spreading necrotic lesions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necrotizing_fasciitis

here's the study on white tailed spider bites 1999-2002
http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/179_04_180803/isb10785_fm.html

That study notwithstanging, they're still a creepy looking spider especially the way they move.

Just to be clear, what ever the cause of reported cases of necrotizing lesions with white tail bites (and it will most likely be bacterial) it should not be confused with necrotizing fasciitis. I worked for a very long time in an ICU that recieved tertiary referral cases of nec. fasc. post hyperbaric therapy and more times than not large scale amputations, the infection spreads rapidly under the skin travelling through and destroying the fascia and unless caught extremely early is often fatal, it is a very different and very much more dangerous beast! Just to freak us all out though...... I did see a case where a lady developed necrotising fasciitis after getting a Strep A. infection in her finger after pricking it on a rose!

[Speedy]

Maybe the publicity about 'white-tailed spider bites causing necrotic lesions' has lead to more misdiagnoses and prevented further searching for the real causal agent.
People who've developed these lesions may have automatically assumed that they've been bitten by a WTS,
even without actually seeing it.
And seeing a WTS around the time of the problem starting may be enough for someone
to be 'absolutely convinced' that the WTS was the cause.
I'm still open to the possibility that they may be a cause,
but the evidence just isnt strong enough.
I'd be looking elsewhere for the cause of the necrosis.

Here's a list of diferential diagnoses-
Vascular ulcers: arterial or venous insufficiency
Diabetic ulcer
Neuropathic ulcer
Microbial infection
Foreign body
Focal and general vasculitis
Injection of toxin (accidental or deliberate)
Drug reaction
Physical/mechanical trauma (may be deliberate)
Bed sores
Burns (especially chemical burns)
Contact dermatitis
Pyoderma gangrenosum
Neoplasm
Connective tissue diseases
q1-antitrypsin deficiency
Other arthropod bites or stings

http://www.avru.org/health/health_necrotis.html

[Speedy]

Just to be clear,.... it should not be confused with necrotizing fasciitis.

Yes, I proly shouldn't have put that in there :blush:

'Necrotising Arachnidism' would be more correct and bad as it may be to have ,
doesn't seem as nasty as necrotising fasciitis.
either way, I wouldnt want any of it :shake:

[pebble]

I wonder if the increase in reports of white tail associated necrosis/ulcers in the past 20 years is due to bacterial evolution from antibiotic overuse i.e the bacteria are the thing we should be looking at rather than the spiders.

[aroideana]

Up here there is something called 'Daintree rot' and it very well could be that necrotising thing .
Looks very bad , leaving massive holes in your flesh , I know a few people who have had it .
A nurse at Mossman Hospital has been working on it for many years,
and has developed a protocol for recognition and treatment.

[Stuk]

G'day pebble

This is my fist post as I have only just come across this forum searching the keyword "white tailed spider" and joined to get involved in the thread and as an added bonus permaculture is also another one of my interests along with entomology.

The easiest way to give my opinion on the white tailed spider would be to send you to a couple of my websites for information. http://www.waystogetridofspiders.com/ and http://www.brownreclusespiderbite.info/

As for the katipo spider you have in NZ a lot of Kiwis are not aware that the Australian red back spider can also be found in NZ also, article here for more info http://www.waystogetridofspiders.com/dangerous-spiders/red-back-spider/

Having said that personally I think they are pretty harmless although at one stage I did think that they were the cause of necrotizing arachnidism. Ok I am going to read the rest of the thread, regards to all and have a great 2012!